NFFC Financial Talk

[Knocker West]

Ok, I'll play. Break down for me how a mid-table provincial championship club is going to generate £20M of profit per season from additional "products or services". Tell me (a) the products and services, and (b) where the capital to fund those ventures comes from and © how they will pass the test of "football operations". 

Take your time.

From anyone of the millions examples already being used by sports & entertainment brands around the world today.

No offence but it's a bit of a ridiculous question as you're actually asking me to walk you through a business plan for a profitable business which is a ludicrous ask when it's unnecessary, as you just need to look at what exists already.

Don't ask me to go & do the market research, set up focus groups & pay for accountants to prove it all because you know that's not a realistic ask, so anything else I say you will jut argue with, rather than admit that the fundamental point I was making was actually right & is obviously right.

There is absolutely nothing to top a club making a profit if it were to offer or market the right product or services, again as evidenced by profitable entities all around the world.

no, just your top 3 ideas of where £20M profit will come from.

See above

If I throw out an idea you will be contrary just for the sake of it & without the focus groups etc. there would not be a definitive answer, so you would just keep going on & on trying to keep a petty argument going while ignoring the point that was made & still stands, & that it is perfectly possible to operate at a profit.

Let's make it even simpler for you, have any championship clubs ever operated at a profit & if they have (they have) why shouldn't we be able to as well?

In short my point stands, & is backed by real life evidence, so again, no thank you, I will not engage in some ridiculous scenario for your benefit, when it's absolutely unnecessary.

Just to be clear; I'm not the one saying that championship football clubs should be able to operate at a profit whilst achieving sporting success. You are. I'm asking you for your ideas of how this can be achieved -- no club I've seen has achieved this without parachute payments.

Still waiting.

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

[Sausage Roll]

Football Index have suspended their trading platform.

[selborne garibaldi]

From anyone of the millions examples already being used by sports & entertainment brands around the world today.

No offence but it's a bit of a ridiculous question as you're actually asking me to walk you through a business plan for a profitable business which is a ludicrous ask when it's unnecessary, as you just need to look at what exists already.

Don't ask me to go & do the market research, set up focus groups & pay for accountants to prove it all because you know that's not a realistic ask, so anything else I say you will jut argue with, rather than admit that the fundamental point I was making was actually right & is obviously right.

There is absolutely nothing to top a club making a profit if it were to offer or market the right product or services, again as evidenced by profitable entities all around the world.

no, just your top 3 ideas of where £20M profit will come from.

See above

If I throw out an idea you will be contrary just for the sake of it & without the focus groups etc. there would not be a definitive answer, so you would just keep going on & on trying to keep a petty argument going while ignoring the point that was made & still stands, & that it is perfectly possible to operate at a profit.

Let's make it even simpler for you, have any championship clubs ever operated at a profit & if they have (they have) why shouldn't we be able to as well?

In short my point stands, & is backed by real life evidence, so again, no thank you, I will not engage in some ridiculous scenario for your benefit, when it's absolutely unnecessary.

Just to be clear; I'm not the one saying that championship football clubs should be able to operate at a profit whilst achieving sporting success. You are. I'm asking you for your ideas of how this can be achieved -- no club I've seen has achieved this without parachute payments.

Still waiting.

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

Genius.

Norwich City lost £38M in the season 2018-2019, their first year without parachute payments.


Next?

[Knocker West]

no, just your top 3 ideas of where £20M profit will come from.

See above

If I throw out an idea you will be contrary just for the sake of it & without the focus groups etc. there would not be a definitive answer, so you would just keep going on & on trying to keep a petty argument going while ignoring the point that was made & still stands, & that it is perfectly possible to operate at a profit.

Let's make it even simpler for you, have any championship clubs ever operated at a profit & if they have (they have) why shouldn't we be able to as well?

In short my point stands, & is backed by real life evidence, so again, no thank you, I will not engage in some ridiculous scenario for your benefit, when it's absolutely unnecessary.

Just to be clear; I'm not the one saying that championship football clubs should be able to operate at a profit whilst achieving sporting success. You are. I'm asking you for your ideas of how this can be achieved -- no club I've seen has achieved this without parachute payments.

Still waiting.

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

Genius.

Not really, there's plenty of examples, I just remember that one as it was all over the financial sports news a few years ago because you actually had the banks releasing a presser to praise them & the self sustaining model that they were running at the time, & suggesting it's what other championship clubs should aspire to, & indeed as I mention earlier in the thread it is what our current owner aspires to as he & our chairman have both publicly stated.

[Knocker West]

Football Index have suspended their trading platform.

It was coming, as soon as people lost faith in the market it was going to crash further & probably never recover. Without investors you don't have a market.

[Tricky]

Football Index have suspended their trading platform.

It was coming, as soon as people lost faith in the market it was going to crash further & probably never recover. Without investors you don't have a market.

Does that mean we will be wearing shirts with no sponsor on the front on saturday then?

[selborne garibaldi]

See above

If I throw out an idea you will be contrary just for the sake of it & without the focus groups etc. there would not be a definitive answer, so you would just keep going on & on trying to keep a petty argument going while ignoring the point that was made & still stands, & that it is perfectly possible to operate at a profit.

Let's make it even simpler for you, have any championship clubs ever operated at a profit & if they have (they have) why shouldn't we be able to as well?

In short my point stands, & is backed by real life evidence, so again, no thank you, I will not engage in some ridiculous scenario for your benefit, when it's absolutely unnecessary.

Just to be clear; I'm not the one saying that championship football clubs should be able to operate at a profit whilst achieving sporting success. You are. I'm asking you for your ideas of how this can be achieved -- no club I've seen has achieved this without parachute payments.

Still waiting.

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

Genius.

Not really, there's plenty of examples, I just remember that one as it was all over the financial sports news a few years ago because you actually had the banks releasing a presser to praise them & the self sustaining model that they were running at the time, & suggesting it's what other championship clubs should aspire to, & indeed as I mention earlier in the thread it is what our current owner aspires to as he & our chairman have both publicly stated.

Genius.

Norwich City lost £38M in the season 2018-2019, their first year without parachute payments.

Next?

[Fumanchew]

Football Index have suspended their trading platform.

It was coming, as soon as people lost faith in the market it was going to crash further & probably never recover. Without investors you don't have a market.

Does that mean we will be wearing shirts with no sponsor on the front on saturday then?

Gone into admin so who knows!

[Strawberry Avenger]

Just to be clear; I'm not the one saying that championship football clubs should be able to operate at a profit whilst achieving sporting success. You are. I'm asking you for your ideas of how this can be achieved -- no club I've seen has achieved this without parachute payments.

Still waiting.

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

Genius.

Not really, there's plenty of examples, I just remember that one as it was all over the financial sports news a few years ago because you actually had the banks releasing a presser to praise them & the self sustaining model that they were running at the time, & suggesting it's what other championship clubs should aspire to, & indeed as I mention earlier in the thread it is what our current owner aspires to as he & our chairman have both publicly stated.

Genius.

Norwich City lost £38M in the season 2018-2019, their first year without parachute payments.

Next?

I did have the perverse thought to get through the current 'narrative' of what's happening in society at large, that football clubs could have let go of all their financially inclined posers that kick a ball around and instead?

On masse decided to play their Academies.   And in that scenario, just how well Forest would do?  And how much financially better off football would be if it could start again at 'grass roots.'

To agree to such a treaty...

As for Norwich. At least they stick with a manager. A plan. They must be doing something right.

How many times have they been promoted in the last 20 years compared to Forest?

Our 'evil twin' of a club. They, 'normal' conditions allowing, have around 30k attendance?

SA.

[Knocker West]

Just to be clear; I'm not the one saying that championship football clubs should be able to operate at a profit whilst achieving sporting success. You are. I'm asking you for your ideas of how this can be achieved -- no club I've seen has achieved this without parachute payments.

Still waiting.

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

Genius.

Not really, there's plenty of examples, I just remember that one as it was all over the financial sports news a few years ago because you actually had the banks releasing a presser to praise them & the self sustaining model that they were running at the time, & suggesting it's what other championship clubs should aspire to, & indeed as I mention earlier in the thread it is what our current owner aspires to as he & our chairman have both publicly stated.

Genius.

Norwich City lost £38M in the season 2018-2019, their first year without parachute payments.

Next?

That wasn't the years I was referring to, but if you keep searching you will find the right ones, & then when you have the answers you can come back here & discuss them with me rather than insisting your right with no evidence what so ever & demanding I go through ever more increasingly ridiculous scenario's for you.

My original point still stands & has been proven over & over again, that it is perfectly possible for a championship club to operate at a profit.

There is no law in the universe forbidding it & the basic rules of economics tell you it's entirely possible to run a company at a profit & there are examples of championship clubs running at a profit, including previously Norwich who were, as mentioned held up as an example by the banks.

This has to be my final response to you because you're just being silly now, you're clearly either looking for an argument or a way to save face & as such will clearly go on & on & on if I keep responding to you, for all your contrary nature & ridiculous demands you haven't even brought a counter argument to the table & explained why you believe it is totally impossible for a championship club to operate at a profit contrary to all evidence.

Instead of your silly demands, trying to nit pick on scenarios, rather than dealing with the core point, why not address that & offer any semblance of evidence a to why it's physically impossible for a championship club to operate at a profit & be sure to cite the actual rules & regulations that make that profit impossible, & not just your lack of imagination when it come to business.

[selborne garibaldi]

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

Genius.

Not really, there's plenty of examples, I just remember that one as it was all over the financial sports news a few years ago because you actually had the banks releasing a presser to praise them & the self sustaining model that they were running at the time, & suggesting it's what other championship clubs should aspire to, & indeed as I mention earlier in the thread it is what our current owner aspires to as he & our chairman have both publicly stated.

Genius.

Norwich City lost £38M in the season 2018-2019, their first year without parachute payments.

Next?

That wasn't the years I was referring to, but if you keep searching you will find the right ones, & then when you have the answers you can come back here & discuss them with me rather than insisting your right with no evidence what so ever & demanding I go through ever more increasingly ridiculous scenario's for you.

My original point still stands & has been proven over & over again, that it is perfectly possible for a championship club to operate at a profit.

There is no law in the universe forbidding it & the basic rules of economics tell you it's entirely possible to run a company at a profit & there are examples of championship clubs running at a profit, including previously Norwich who were, as mentioned held up as an example by the banks.

This has to be my final response to you because you're just being silly now, you're clearly either looking for an argument or a way to save face & as such will clearly go on & on & on if I keep responding to you, for all your contrary nature & ridiculous demands you haven't even brought a counter argument to the table & explained why you believe it is totally impossible for a championship club to operate at a profit contrary to all evidence.

Instead of your silly demands, trying to nit pick on scenarios, rather than dealing with the core point, why not address that & offer any semblance of evidence a to why it's physically impossible for a championship club to operate at a profit & be sure to cite the actual rules & regulations that make that profit impossible, & not just your lack of imagination when it come to business.

Goodness knows what you are on about; I'm not insisting I'm right - I'm asking you to back up your claim that championship football clubs could make a profit, within the rules of FFP, and have sporting success "with a little imagination, and dreaming big". If you can't do that, then fine, but your argument is weak and your research is poor if you can't provide examples of how to do this. Hand-waving and crying that I'm being "silly", "ridiculous", "nit-pick", "impossible" won't cut it. Play the argument, not the man to borrow a phrase.

What is it that you think Forest should do now to generate £20M of profit each season, whilst building a squad capable of a top-6 finish?

It's not my rules that say that only earnings from football operations can be counted. The fact that you either don't understand that rule or want to ignore it, doesn't change the rule. 

p.s. Norwich had parachute payments for 8 years running. I've looked back at their accounts for over 10 years. You haven't even read the link I sent you.

[Sabricadabra]

Norwich city

Now are you going to stop being silly?

Genius.

Not really, there's plenty of examples, I just remember that one as it was all over the financial sports news a few years ago because you actually had the banks releasing a presser to praise them & the self sustaining model that they were running at the time, & suggesting it's what other championship clubs should aspire to, & indeed as I mention earlier in the thread it is what our current owner aspires to as he & our chairman have both publicly stated.

Genius.

Norwich City lost £38M in the season 2018-2019, their first year without parachute payments.

Next?

I did have the perverse thought to get through the current 'narrative' of what's happening in society at large, that football clubs could have let go of all their financially inclined posers that kick a ball around and instead?

On masse decided to play their Academies.   And in that scenario, just how well Forest would do?  And how much financially better off football would be if it could start again at 'grass roots.'

To agree to such a treaty...

SA.

An academy competition would still see us in the second division?
How do we fare usually against these other academy 2 clubs? 


Also, Derby are in Premier League 2 having a Cat1 academy so we would be in the league below them.  :cry: