NFFC Financial Talk

[selborne garibaldi]

It should be noted that football itself gives us a sum income of virtually £0, every single penny we make is from other business, whether that is selling TV rights, tickets for a seat in the stadium, food, merchandise, it is all related income, it's all cashing in on  the football,but the football itself pays virtually nothing, ask any grass roots club, where all the fat & trimmings have been cut out, & it is just 11 v 11 on a muddy field. The money comes from everything else.

You are missing the point.

All of the above are "football operations".  Running a multi-national electronics company is not football operations. 

Hiring the ground out for weddings? Football operations

Competing with Apple for the global mobile phone market? Not football operations.

And that's before we discuss what the tax implications is of a multi-national putting all group revenues through a UK entity.

[Tricky]

I don't think it is.

It quite patently is, as I can prove with a hypothetical, included in our financial figures is all income, including from the club shop, where we sell tshirts & key-rings, among other things, oh, & phone cases, I have a nice Forest phone case, that fits my Samsung Phone.

What's that got to do with anything?

Assume NFFC owned Samsung, & I know we're not about to buy Samsung, but this is a hypothetical to make a point, so let's assume we did, & all sales went through our accounts, we'd have made 16 trillion dollars in the last quarter & would have a huge profit on our books.

Now, as I say, I'm not expecting us to buy Samsung, I'm just using that as a hypothetical that uses a brand we are all familiar with, but as you see I've just got our accounts at a huge profit, over the 10 billion a year figure I used, & within the rules of the game & FFP.

Now, again, I'm not suggesting we buy Samsung, but there is no reason why we can't diversify in other areas & increase our revenue streams accordingly.

There is actually no limit on how much a club can diversify, how much a club can earn or how big their profits can be.

It's just a case of daring to dream big & having the ability to deliver on the dream.

Dream on mate. Suppose Forest did own Samsung but then Samsung ran into trouble. The club would then be funding the company's debt's.

I haven't looked at the accounts because by and large, I wouldn't know WTF i was looking at! With that in mind, have the Ladies team been included in the accounts?

The reason I ask is the point KW has made with regards to diversifying into other areas. For example, don't Olympiacos have a massively supported Basketball team and if so, are they financially dependent on the football club or the company owning the football club? Maybe Sniff would know more about that?

[ozzyten10]

Bottom line- are we compliant with allowable losses for FFP? Can anyone answer?

[Strawberry Avenger]

Bottom line- are we compliant with allowable losses for FFP? Can anyone answer?

Some munch needed (and long awaited) communication between The Club and The Fans.

Maybe somebody will ask the question.  'Real soon.'

SA.

[Knocker West]

It should be noted that football itself gives us a sum income of virtually £0, every single penny we make is from other business, whether that is selling TV rights, tickets for a seat in the stadium, food, merchandise, it is all related income, it's all cashing in on  the football,but the football itself pays virtually nothing, ask any grass roots club, where all the fat & trimmings have been cut out, & it is just 11 v 11 on a muddy field. The money comes from everything else.

You are missing the point.

All of the above are "football operations".  Running a multi-national electronics company is not football operations. 

Hiring the ground out for weddings? Football operations

Competing with Apple for the global mobile phone market? Not football operations.

And that's before we discuss what the tax implications is of a multi-national putting all group revenues through a UK entity.

A is selling phones, if you want it to be, just stick the club logo on them & they are no different than the key rings & phone cases in the shop, those things are only football operations because the clubs say they are, what has football got to do with weddings, or corporate lunches, or music records, or TV documentaries? The only connection to football is the association with the football club.

You seem to be getting hung up on the obviously hyped up hypothetical, used to demonstrate the point, while missing the point itself, & that is that there are a million & one ways to make a profit in football, as demonstrated by hundreds of clubs around the world & that it is perfectly possible for the right person to produce the right combination of products or services to turn a profit.

[selborne garibaldi]

It should be noted that football itself gives us a sum income of virtually £0, every single penny we make is from other business, whether that is selling TV rights, tickets for a seat in the stadium, food, merchandise, it is all related income, it's all cashing in on  the football,but the football itself pays virtually nothing, ask any grass roots club, where all the fat & trimmings have been cut out, & it is just 11 v 11 on a muddy field. The money comes from everything else.

You are missing the point.

All of the above are "football operations".  Running a multi-national electronics company is not football operations. 

Hiring the ground out for weddings? Football operations

Competing with Apple for the global mobile phone market? Not football operations.

And that's before we discuss what the tax implications is of a multi-national putting all group revenues through a UK entity.

A is selling phones, if you want it to be, just stick the club logo on them & they are no different than the key rings & phone cases in the shop, those things are only football operations because the clubs say they are, what has football got to do with weddings, or corporate lunches, or music records, or TV documentaries? The only connection to football is the association with the football club.

You seem to be getting hung up on the obviously hyped up hypothetical, used to demonstrate the point, while missing the point itself, & that is that there are a million & one ways to make a profit in football, as demonstrated by hundreds of clubs around the world & that it is perfectly possible for the right person to produce the right combination of products or services to turn a profit.

Ok, I'll play. Break down for me how a mid-table provincial championship club is going to generate £20M of profit per season from additional "products or services". Tell me (a) the products and services, and (b) where the capital to fund those ventures comes from and © how they will pass the test of "football operations". 

Take your time.

[Knocker West]

It should be noted that football itself gives us a sum income of virtually £0, every single penny we make is from other business, whether that is selling TV rights, tickets for a seat in the stadium, food, merchandise, it is all related income, it's all cashing in on  the football,but the football itself pays virtually nothing, ask any grass roots club, where all the fat & trimmings have been cut out, & it is just 11 v 11 on a muddy field. The money comes from everything else.

You are missing the point.

All of the above are "football operations".  Running a multi-national electronics company is not football operations. 

Hiring the ground out for weddings? Football operations

Competing with Apple for the global mobile phone market? Not football operations.

And that's before we discuss what the tax implications is of a multi-national putting all group revenues through a UK entity.

A is selling phones, if you want it to be, just stick the club logo on them & they are no different than the key rings & phone cases in the shop, those things are only football operations because the clubs say they are, what has football got to do with weddings, or corporate lunches, or music records, or TV documentaries? The only connection to football is the association with the football club.

You seem to be getting hung up on the obviously hyped up hypothetical, used to demonstrate the point, while missing the point itself, & that is that there are a million & one ways to make a profit in football, as demonstrated by hundreds of clubs around the world & that it is perfectly possible for the right person to produce the right combination of products or services to turn a profit.

Ok, I'll play. Break down for me how a mid-table provincial championship club is going to generate £20M of profit per season from additional "products or services". Tell me (a) the products and services, and (b) where the capital to fund those ventures comes from and © how they will pass the test of "football operations". 

Take your time.

From anyone of the millions examples already being used by sports & entertainment brands around the world today.

No offence but it's a bit of a ridiculous question as you're actually asking me to walk you through a business plan for a profitable business which is a ludicrous ask when it's unnecessary, as you just need to look at what exists already.

Don't ask me to go & do the market research, set up focus groups & pay for accountants to prove it all because you know that's not a realistic ask, so anything else I say you will jut argue with, rather than admit that the fundamental point I was making was actually right & is obviously right.

There is absolutely nothing to top a club making a profit if it were to offer or market the right product or services, again as evidenced by profitable entities all around the world.

[Reds73]

Bottom line- are we compliant with allowable losses for FFP? Can anyone answer?

Yes we are.

The large losses from 3 yrs ago have now dropped off.

These accounts also aren’t that actual amounts relevant for FFP either.

Academy costs, infrastructure etc doesn’t get included for FFP

We are fine in terms of FFP

[selborne garibaldi]

It should be noted that football itself gives us a sum income of virtually £0, every single penny we make is from other business, whether that is selling TV rights, tickets for a seat in the stadium, food, merchandise, it is all related income, it's all cashing in on  the football,but the football itself pays virtually nothing, ask any grass roots club, where all the fat & trimmings have been cut out, & it is just 11 v 11 on a muddy field. The money comes from everything else.

You are missing the point.

All of the above are "football operations".  Running a multi-national electronics company is not football operations. 

Hiring the ground out for weddings? Football operations

Competing with Apple for the global mobile phone market? Not football operations.

And that's before we discuss what the tax implications is of a multi-national putting all group revenues through a UK entity.

A is selling phones, if you want it to be, just stick the club logo on them & they are no different than the key rings & phone cases in the shop, those things are only football operations because the clubs say they are, what has football got to do with weddings, or corporate lunches, or music records, or TV documentaries? The only connection to football is the association with the football club.

You seem to be getting hung up on the obviously hyped up hypothetical, used to demonstrate the point, while missing the point itself, & that is that there are a million & one ways to make a profit in football, as demonstrated by hundreds of clubs around the world & that it is perfectly possible for the right person to produce the right combination of products or services to turn a profit.

Ok, I'll play. Break down for me how a mid-table provincial championship club is going to generate £20M of profit per season from additional "products or services". Tell me (a) the products and services, and (b) where the capital to fund those ventures comes from and © how they will pass the test of "football operations". 

Take your time.

From anyone of the millions examples already being used by sports & entertainment brands around the world today.

No offence but it's a bit of a ridiculous question as you're actually asking me to walk you through a business plan for a profitable business which is a ludicrous ask when it's unnecessary, as you just need to look at what exists already.

Don't ask me to go & do the market research, set up focus groups & pay for accountants to prove it all because you know that's not a realistic ask, so anything else I say you will jut argue with, rather than admit that the fundamental point I was making was actually right & is obviously right.

There is absolutely nothing to top a club making a profit if it were to offer or market the right product or services, again as evidenced by profitable entities all around the world.

no, just your top 3 ideas of where £20M profit will come from.

[Knocker West]

You are missing the point.

All of the above are "football operations".  Running a multi-national electronics company is not football operations. 

Hiring the ground out for weddings? Football operations

Competing with Apple for the global mobile phone market? Not football operations.

And that's before we discuss what the tax implications is of a multi-national putting all group revenues through a UK entity.

A is selling phones, if you want it to be, just stick the club logo on them & they are no different than the key rings & phone cases in the shop, those things are only football operations because the clubs say they are, what has football got to do with weddings, or corporate lunches, or music records, or TV documentaries? The only connection to football is the association with the football club.

You seem to be getting hung up on the obviously hyped up hypothetical, used to demonstrate the point, while missing the point itself, & that is that there are a million & one ways to make a profit in football, as demonstrated by hundreds of clubs around the world & that it is perfectly possible for the right person to produce the right combination of products or services to turn a profit.

Ok, I'll play. Break down for me how a mid-table provincial championship club is going to generate £20M of profit per season from additional "products or services". Tell me (a) the products and services, and (b) where the capital to fund those ventures comes from and © how they will pass the test of "football operations". 

Take your time.

From anyone of the millions examples already being used by sports & entertainment brands around the world today.

No offence but it's a bit of a ridiculous question as you're actually asking me to walk you through a business plan for a profitable business which is a ludicrous ask when it's unnecessary, as you just need to look at what exists already.

Don't ask me to go & do the market research, set up focus groups & pay for accountants to prove it all because you know that's not a realistic ask, so anything else I say you will jut argue with, rather than admit that the fundamental point I was making was actually right & is obviously right.

There is absolutely nothing to top a club making a profit if it were to offer or market the right product or services, again as evidenced by profitable entities all around the world.

no, just your top 3 ideas of where £20M profit will come from.

See above

If I throw out an idea you will be contrary just for the sake of it & without the focus groups etc. there would not be a definitive answer, so you would just keep going on & on trying to keep a petty argument going while ignoring the point that was made & still stands, & that it is perfectly possible to operate at a profit.

Let's make it even simpler for you, have any championship clubs ever operated at a profit & if they have (they have) why shouldn't we be able to as well?

In short my point stands, & is backed by real life evidence, so again, no thank you, I will not engage in some ridiculous scenario for your benefit, when it's absolutely unnecessary.

[selborne garibaldi]

A is selling phones, if you want it to be, just stick the club logo on them & they are no different than the key rings & phone cases in the shop, those things are only football operations because the clubs say they are, what has football got to do with weddings, or corporate lunches, or music records, or TV documentaries? The only connection to football is the association with the football club.

You seem to be getting hung up on the obviously hyped up hypothetical, used to demonstrate the point, while missing the point itself, & that is that there are a million & one ways to make a profit in football, as demonstrated by hundreds of clubs around the world & that it is perfectly possible for the right person to produce the right combination of products or services to turn a profit.

Ok, I'll play. Break down for me how a mid-table provincial championship club is going to generate £20M of profit per season from additional "products or services". Tell me (a) the products and services, and (b) where the capital to fund those ventures comes from and © how they will pass the test of "football operations". 

Take your time.

From anyone of the millions examples already being used by sports & entertainment brands around the world today.

No offence but it's a bit of a ridiculous question as you're actually asking me to walk you through a business plan for a profitable business which is a ludicrous ask when it's unnecessary, as you just need to look at what exists already.

Don't ask me to go & do the market research, set up focus groups & pay for accountants to prove it all because you know that's not a realistic ask, so anything else I say you will jut argue with, rather than admit that the fundamental point I was making was actually right & is obviously right.

There is absolutely nothing to top a club making a profit if it were to offer or market the right product or services, again as evidenced by profitable entities all around the world.

no, just your top 3 ideas of where £20M profit will come from.

See above

If I throw out an idea you will be contrary just for the sake of it & without the focus groups etc. there would not be a definitive answer, so you would just keep going on & on trying to keep a petty argument going while ignoring the point that was made & still stands, & that it is perfectly possible to operate at a profit.

Let's make it even simpler for you, have any championship clubs ever operated at a profit & if they have (they have) why shouldn't we be able to as well?

In short my point stands, & is backed by real life evidence, so again, no thank you, I will not engage in some ridiculous scenario for your benefit, when it's absolutely unnecessary.

Just to be clear; I'm not the one saying that championship football clubs should be able to operate at a profit whilst achieving sporting success. You are. I'm asking you for your ideas of how this can be achieved -- no club I've seen has achieved this without parachute payments.

Still waiting.

[ThePromisedLand]

Bottom line- are we compliant with allowable losses for FFP? Can anyone answer?

Yes we are.

The large losses from 3 yrs ago have now dropped off.

These accounts also aren’t that actual amounts relevant for FFP either.

Academy costs, infrastructure etc doesn’t get included for FFP

We are fine in terms of FFP

Thank you.
The most important element of these results.