We Need To Play 4-4-2!?

[Username]

Aitor has signed offensive full backs for a reason, he has signed Dias and Lolley for a reason, to go 4-4-2 would be suicide.

[stirred]

Well, that Birmingham match highlights the point I was trying to make. I know individually players were poor as well as collectively, but fundamentally Karanka sets us up too defensively.

You don’t play two defensive midfielders in a 4-2-3-1 like that. They’re too deep, too close to the defence, so weren’t even competing to own the middle of the park. So we got overrun in the actual midfield, which puts our ‘creative’ 3 on the backfoot. And when we win possession back we’re deep so either try to run it out or hoof it to an outnumbered target man with no support. Neither of which works. The almost back 6 are disconnected from the ~forward 4.

I agree that you can get tied up with formations. They’re a framework and it depends on who you have on the pitch. That’s partly why it worked better when Gueddy played there - when he played well- because he played forwards. It’s a combination of the formation and who you pick. But my heart sank when I saw the team sheet, with Colback and Watson. They play too defensively for a 4-2-3-1 to work. In possession at times it looked like they tried to push the fullbacks forward, get one of the mids to drop into a 3 in the back with the other defensive mid coming short as an option. But it’s still too much weight of your numbers too deep in the pitch. Alternatively you pick the team with a body further up the pitch, win back possession higher up the pitch, and have more men in forward positions to worry the opposition. The subs changed it, when he got rid of the second defensive mid. I won’t claim it was just because of that that we got the draw but it’s no coincidence that we did better when we ditched one of those defensive mids.

And it’s no coincidence Karanka has such a poor winning record - 6 in 27 matches. He sets it up too defensively - and as a squad we will continue to underperform compared to the quality in that squad if he persists with it.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Interesting read.

Players win you games.

Watson seemed out of it today. His mistake for the 1st goal. ...and I dunno what Forest were doing for the 2nd.

Whether you play 442, 4321...352...you need the players to play it.

I don't think we have the midfield engine or expansive player in CM. No. If Geddy blows hot or cold or is injured...or outnumbered in being e.g. targeted by Reading....then it's not enough to have Watson and Colback in there. 3 games now it's been a bit shaky in 'there.' 1 recognised striker in squad today.

Forest have a 'catch up' squad and team. It isn't finished. It's one decent transfer window into a project. Ironic that the players that have been here longer in Os' and Lolley got Forest going when they came on. 'Time.' It will take time to make the new pieces fit... ...and what about missing pieces?

It wasn't good 1st half and Forest got booed. It was poor.

Forest need a more robust, energetic and dominant CM who can drive the team. Cohen's drive, a Watson in his prime steel and a Geddy with an expansive game. 3 players in one maybe. ...and a Striker. Paper thin there.

SA.

[wassy04]

Hard to tell as I was only able to watch on tv yesterday but looked like we finished 352 yesterday? Not saying it had much impact on the result, it was a proper double sucker punch.

Assuming the above is true can we expect to see that tried against Newcastle. Good opportunity to experiment and we have plenty of players that could slot in. Formation would certainly utilise Osborn better and cash/Byram at RWB. Would allow soudani to play off a striker (or Dias) with Carvalho in behind those two. Leaving Colback/gueddy in CM. For Newcastle imagine Goncalves will play and Lolley but still would work.

Thoughts?

[Username]

Not gonna happen

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A boy comes home with the assignment of learning theory vs reality. So he asks his dad for help. "Ok son, ask your sister if she'd sleep with Justin Bieber for a million bucks." Kid comes back and says "Yeah dad she would." "Ok now ask your mom if she'd sleep with Brad Pitt for a million bucks." Kid ask his mom. "Mom said she sure would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million bucks." Dad says "Now in THEORY we have two million dollars, in REALITY..... we live with a couple of whores."

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

When Osborn came on we went 4 1 4 1 from our usual 4 2 3 1 and we looked better for it, obviously having an extra man further up the pitch, it finally gave Birmingham something to think about.

Karanka needs to loosen up a bit and be a bit more flexible in my opinon, if not I fear that it will cost him his job eventually.

He should also take some English lessons. His use of the English language is not very good.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Not gonna happen

---

A boy comes home with the assignment of learning theory vs reality. So he asks his dad for help. "Ok son, ask your sister if she'd sleep with Justin Bieber for a million bucks." Kid comes back and says "Yeah dad she would." "Ok now ask your mom if she'd sleep with Brad Pitt for a million bucks." Kid ask his mom. "Mom said she sure would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million bucks." Dad says "Now in THEORY we have two million dollars, in REALITY..... we live with a couple of whores."

:P

SA.   :angel:

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When Osborn came on we went 4 1 4 1  from our usual 4 2 3 1 and we looked better for it, obviously having an extra an further up the pitch, it finally gave Birmingham something to think about.

Karanka needs to loosen up a bit and be a bit more flexible in my opinon, if not I fear that it will cost him his job eventually.

He should also take some English lessons. His use of the English language is not very good.

Made a world of difference.

RE: his English.  I find it difficult to hear and understand what he's saying.  

I used to like listening to Billy Davis' post match interview.  Always colourful.  You were left in no doubt how he felt.

But as long as Aitor builds Forest up and delivers he can speak Spanish for me.

SA.

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Hard to tell as I was only able to watch on tv yesterday but looked like we finished 352 yesterday? Not saying it had much impact on the result, it was a proper double sucker punch.

Assuming the above is true can we expect to see that tried against Newcastle. Good opportunity to experiment and we have plenty of players that could slot in. Formation would certainly utilise Osborn better and cash/Byram at RWB. Would allow soudani to play off a striker (or Dias) with Carvalho in behind those two. Leaving Colback/gueddy in CM. For Newcastle imagine Goncalves will play and Lolley but still would work.

Thoughts?

Agree with this.  I was still smarting after our 1st half performance...so when the changes were made it didn't fully register how Forest set up.  

Os' went into midfield?  Alongside Colback?  Cash to RB/wingback?  ...and Lolley through the middle?  Or was that Car?  and Lolley on the left wing?

It gave Forest more energy and guile and directness.  People can knock Os' but when he comes on, Forest 'tick' and I'd  be more concerned about losing Os' then Ben Bre' in that context.  That's a few games now where it's been noticeable where he comes on or is moved up the pitch and things start to happen.

Newcastle is a good opportunity to mix things up a bit.  Watson will be out the 18 for that based on his performance against Birmingham.  Bring Bridcutt or even Os' alongside Colback.  Yates on the Bench.  Time to try a 3-5-2, a 4-1-4-1 or a 4-3-3 even.

SA.

[Username]

I did say on the Birmingham thread pre-game that Osborn should have moved to DCM if Robinson were to come in.

Quite surprised that Osborn was dropped in all honesty.

[stirred]

Has 4-2-3-1 fallen out of fashion? Was just watching MOTD - assuming the reported formations are correct - only 3 out of the 14 Prem teams today lined up with 4-2-3-1 (two of them losing at home whilst Everton managed a draw at home to Huddersfield). Of the top teams, Liverpool and Chelsea deployed 4-3-3, whilst Man City, noting they were at home to a lower team went for 2 up top in a 4-1-3-2. There was even a clash of 4-4-2 formations at Selhurst Park.

[PsychoStanleyStone]

2 up top in a 4-1-3-2

i'm no tactical expert but I appreciate your observations

must say though, 4 1 3 2 looks very exciting

if only we could turn back time and if we had to choose a blinkered manager he would be totally blinkered to playing 4  1 3 2 and build a squad accordingly

[wassy04]

Interesting analysis, interestingly I’ve thought the only time we’ve actually looked any good under karanka was when we lined up 433 at the end of last season. Seems a legit formation with this squad although not sure how you fit Carvalho into that. Can’t see him changing anyway given he’s shown not hint at changing this season so far bar 5 mins v Birmingham.

In fairness when gueddy was fit it was more of a 4141 anyway as he was getting as far forward as anyone. Just doesn’t end up looking like that with Watson playing. This season’s scapegoat?!

[Strawberry Avenger]

"Players win you football matches." Brian Clough.

SA.