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+--- Thread: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? (/showthread.php?tid=201)
We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - PsychoStooge - 24-08-2018
First of all let me say to the mods if this isn't relevant enough for '100% Forest Talk' then please move it to the relevant forum, thanks! (I will say I think it is though!) and also this isn't meant as a dig at anyone, more something that has interested me for a while and something I've intended to write about for a while...
4-4-2!?
I've noticed on various platforms, not just 'COYR' that the cries of "Karanka needs to go 4-4-2!", "He never plays 2 up top!" etc. have begun to rear their head again. It's nothing new, it seems to happen two or three times a season and it's something that often makes me wonder, do the people asking for that really believe 2 up front = more goals = winning more games? If it were that simple more teams would do it, wouldn't they?
Well first of all we know modern football, for the most part, is won on possession of the ball and possession is usually held (for the most part) by the midfield, they're the ones who can pass it, they're the ones who are usually the most comfortable on it. It's no big surprise that for the last 10-15 years players like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pirlo, Xabi Alonso, Fabregas, David Silva, Modric, Kroos etc. have been lauded as geniuses even Paul Scholes, who was never as appreciated at the time and often stuck on the left wing for England, gained the recognition he deserved as a midfield maestro, albeit a bit late. If not for the 'out of this world' talents of Messi and Ronaldo those I listed previously would've shared the Balon D'Or between them for the last 15 years, no doubt. 15 years... Significant that those players have been gushed over for the last 15 years. Now I'm not saying there weren't midfielders hailed as brilliant before then but not to the level and frequency these players are/were and definitely not in this country, where if you were a centre midfielder who was under 6ft by the age of 17/18 you would've had to be a prodigious talent to make it in a Premier League team, else you'd have been dubbed "too small", "not strong enough" it's part of the reason we still lacked a top play-maker at the World Cup this summer gone. Thankfully those in charge of our academies have now woken up and see technicians for what they are, brilliant footballers.
15 years ago is also around the same time that 4-4-2 died as a mainstream formation in top level football. In the Premier League the United team of 98/99, the Arsenal Invincibles of 03/04 and Liverpool, who enjoyed success under Rafa Benitez in the mid 00s all used 4-4-2 and then gradually it faded away. Those top teams simply couldn't compete using that formation anymore, why? As the above paragraph alluded to, the game is won in midfield and that was still true when 4-4-2 was king, but the game kept getting quicker and quicker and suddenly those teams with 3 in midfield simply over-ran those who had 2, they took all of the ball and because they had geniuses like the ones listed earlier they controlled games, you don't need me to tell you that Barcelona just didn't give the ball away when Xavi and Iniesta were in their prime, it's no surprise to see City doing the same now with David Silva and KDB.
It's not just centre midfielders who have adapted, fullbacks, wide-men and strikers are different now too. In teams like Barcelona, Bayern Munich, City, Liverpool etc. over the last 10 years or so the wide-men aren't placed on their natural side and told to get to the byline, cross the ball and track back to cover the fullback anymore; they're skilful strikers, placed on the opposite wing to their dominant foot, told to play narrow, cut inside and cause havoc... The width comes from the fullback and I know the likes of Roberto Carlos, Ashley Cole, Cafu etc. have been bombing on for years but they did so in support of the wide midfielder, now in a lot of cases the fullbacks are the primary source of width, they're the ones told to get to the byline and cross the ball. Strikers are also a different beast, tenacious and relentless like Suarez, Firmino and Aguero or powerhouses like Drogba, Lukaku and Lewandowski it's growing more and more difficult for a simple poacher to play for a top team, they just don't do enough work for modern football.
Before concluding I just wanted to highlight a couple of examples of 4-4-2 working in the modern Premier League but explain why I think those examples are different to what 4-4-2 used to be. The obvious case is Leicester City winning the league playing 4-4-2 under Ranieri in 2015/16. Leicester's direct style was aided by 3 key figures in my opinion, they are: N'Golo Kante, Jamie Vardy and Shinji Okazaki. Starting with Kante, nobody needs me to say how good he is but I will anyway... He's God-like, sometimes there appears to be 2 or 3 of him on the pitch, he's everywhere and that was so crucial for Leicester who conceded a lot of possession due to their formation and style. Without Kante they don't win the ball back and they don't get on the counter... Which brings us to Jamie Vardy, a paragraph back I spoke about tenacious and relentless strikers and listed 3 South Americans, they tend to have that quality, well Jamie Vardy has it too plus he can finish and he's rapid. Leicester lulled teams into a sense of security by allowing them so much possession, that meant the opponents tended to hold a high line, unfortunately for them Kante would win it back like a flash and straight away Vardy would be on his bike: ball over the top, touch, bang, goal. It really was that simple and teams couldn't handle it, they kept underestimating Leicester all the way to them winning the league. Finally Okazaki, work, work, work, work, work and more work, he didn't get the plaudits Vardy did but he should've done. When they lost the ball they shifted to 4-5-1 and Okazaki dropped back and became a midfielder, he didn't stop running, became the extra man and cut out space (Vardy did this too by pressing the back line), in turn that caused errors and Kante was able to pounce. So that's Leicester's perfect storm 4-4-2.
Burnley under Sean Dyche use a 4-4-2 and you'll often hear statisticians say how baffled they are that Burnley finished so high last season. In my opinion Burnley play the game of chance and do it very well. They have competent players, strong defence, top class goalkeepers but their forwards are intriguing and clever. When Burnley are up against tougher opposition they play this game of chance and rely on winning free-kicks in and around the area, taking advantage of their height at set pieces to nick goals and then shut up shop, that is how they win games. When they don't have possession they're incredibly well drilled and one of the strikers (Usually Barnes) will drop into midfield much like Okazaki and squeeze the space, once they win it back it goes out to the wide-men who then attempt to find one of Barnes, Voakes or Wood to hold it up and draw fouls, they play a simple style, they're well drilled in it but they don't dominate games.
In conclusion 4-4-2 has a place in modern football but only when you have a specialist set of players and a certain style, it's extremely rare that you'd ever see a team play 4-4-2 and dominate possession and lets face it with our Iberian manager possession is gonna be important.
So those are my thoughts apologies that it is so long, as I said it's something I've meant to write on for a while and where better to share than here. Thanks for reading if you did and I'm keen to know what people really think about 4-4-2 especially where Forest are concerned.
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - Sausage Roll - 24-08-2018
You've set out some valid points but I don't think we will or should play 4-4-2, for a few reasons:
- We'd leave the defence more vulnerable without having the two deeper-lying midfielders who can drop back to help them
- We have full backs who like to and are good at pushing forward. Having two wide players in a midfield four would stifle their ability to do so
- We're creating plenty of chances as it is with only one up top. We've had the most shots in the Championship so far this season and the fifth-most on target. It's not having one up top that's stopping us scoring goals, it's just not taking these chances
- We don't have enough strikers for playing 4-4-2. I'm not saying we should go back to the Billy Davies days of six strikers, but currently we only have three, and the future of one of those is in question. Presumably if Brereton did go then we'd replace him, but that would still only leave us with three strikers
I absolutely agree that 4-4-2 can be effective, but it's just not the way Karanka plays. He's built his squad to fit his formation and I don't see him changing so radically now. And I don't think he needs to.
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - PsychoStooge - 24-08-2018
(24-08-2018, 12:28 PM)Sausage Roll Wrote: You've set out some valid points but I don't think we will or should play 4-4-2, for a few reasons:
- We'd leave the defence more vulnerable without having the two deeper-lying midfielders who can drop back to help them
- We're creating plenty of chances as it is with only one up top. We've had the most shots in the Championship so far this season and the fifth-most on target. It's not having one up top that's stopping us scoring goals, it's just not taking these chances
- We don't have enough strikers for playing 4-4-2. I'm not saying we should go back to the Billy Davies days of six strikers, but currently we only have three, and the future of one of those is in question. Presumably if Brereton did go then we'd replace him, but that would still only leave us with three strikers
I absolutely agree that 4-4-2 can be effective, but it's just not the way Karanka plays. He's built his squad to fit his formation and I don't see him changing so radically now. And I don't think he needs to.
I completely agree, perhaps I should've made it a bit clearer that I'm firmly not in the 4-4-2 camp!
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - wassy04 - 24-08-2018
I love the simplicity of 442 as much as the next person, it’s main issues in modern football appear to be for teama with a lower skill level. It’s still used a lot in leagues one and two and some teams in championship. I think there’s still value in the championship personally although I would probably say if we’re trying to play a dominant style of football then 442 is not the answer.
You could still play 2 up top (or 1 with 1 playing close to then) in a 352 like England did at the World Cup. We didn’t look good playing that way last season though!
I thought the 433 we played last season near the end was quite effective. It’s oretty similar to now though I guess.
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - Strawberry Avenger - 24-08-2018
(24-08-2018, 12:37 PM)NG3 Wrote: There is an old saying in football, if you need your manager to change you probably need to change your manager. Karanka's preferred formation has always been 4-2-3-1. It's what he believes in & he's actually on record as being very critical of 4-4-2. He doesn't like it & doesn't have faith in it.
We can sit & argue the merits & debits of 4-4-2 all day long, but it's simply irrelevant under the current manager.
Presumably Forest's hierarchy were happy with Aitor's CV when they employed him in light of what he did at Boro' over 2 and a half seasons in the Championship.
They know he plays 4-2-3-1. Every manager has their philosophy.
4-4-2. It's not going to happen under Aitor.
I think, given the personnel at his disposal, he may go for 3-5-2 with Byram and Os' as Wingbacks. Maybe Dawson, Fox and Robinson as CHs...and Watson, Colback as the DCMs with maybe Cash or Car' in-between them to get the team going forward more efficiently...
...and that allows a 'two' up front. eg. Grabban with Soudani just behind him?
But it won't be 4-4-2. But I agree with the sentiment of trying to get two strikers up front to give the opposition defenders more to think about and deal with. I think that's missing and I feel a lone striker has a lot to deal with up front on their own.
SA.
(24-08-2018, 01:16 PM)wassy04 Wrote: I love the simplicity of 442 as much as the next person, it’s main issues in modern football appear to be for teama with a lower skill level. It’s still used a lot in leagues one and two and some teams in championship. I think there’s still value in the championship personally although I would probably say if we’re trying to play a dominant style of football then 442 is not the answer.
You could still play 2 up top (or 1 with 1 playing close to then) in a 352 like England did at the World Cup. We didn’t look good playing that way last season though!
I thought the 433 we played last season near the end was quite effective. It’s oretty similar to now though I guess.
4-3-3.
Perhaps that could be another option.
We've got plenty of players. But can we combine the defensive steel with the pace and dashing attack? Up to Aitor to find the combination.
Does have have quite all the pieces? I'm sure if Bre' is sold for 14 million we'll find out what his thoughts are...
SA.
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - PsychoStanleyStone - 24-08-2018
really good to read, i appreciate your efforts
personally I love the 'unsung hero', willing, hard working and would sacrifice himself for the cause and believes in his team mates, loves the club and if they make a drastic mistake they are reassured and learn from it
my utopia would be a team drilled into being able to switch drastically, gamble, change formation a few times during games
the bottom line is i can't see much experimentation happening now, it seems the pressure is too high, the fans and the owners expectations combined with AK's management style/vision
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - ThePromisedLand - 24-08-2018
4-2-3-1 please
Oh wait...
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - Username - 24-08-2018
We would concede even more goals playing 4-4-2
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - Tricky - 24-08-2018
Psychostooge...................let me stand and applaud an excellent, well thought out and worded post mate. Absolutely top draw.
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - Turkish - 25-08-2018
Simple game made complicated
Styles and systems may change but they have one thing in common a manager that sits behind it with a crystal clear vision and the ability to impart it on to the players and with masses of confidence, Shank Paisley Cloughie Fergie George Graham Wenger and now Pep Klopp and Potch are the managers that had a philosophy a formation and the ability to put a team together that does their talking for them
The only change in pattern I can see AK introducing is moving from 2 to 1 defensive midfielders and I think that would take consistency in performances good results and seeing his team extremely confident and clear in their jobs which I do believe we will get to, to some extent perhaps not enough to see that change but for the life of me I'm not seeing the concerns of many of my fellow trickies
5 games unbeaten for what is essentially 3/4 of a new team, since Jan, which is showing levels of inconsistency and stuttering a bit, its an obvious outcome, probably not what we want but this was completely inevitable, that said we get one good result 3 or 4 goals and a brace for Grabban and we are completely cooking on gas, we are very nearly there
There will be changes Byram Dawson at the back and increased use of Diaz and Gonavales partnerships between forwards midfielders and the defensive unit need to formed, very difficult when you have 8 games at a rate of 1 in 4 days and you have to manage fitness levels and niggles
The club is ambitious, the club through pricing and interacting with fan groups have invited us to the party and we have responded in droves so naturally expectation is high, excitement is a difficult emotion to control as is disappointment as fans I think we can offer the club our assistance by keeping a lid on the good times and accepting the bad times, the teams job is to be there and about come Xmas, we do that and come the new year the gloves can come off
I shall be setting off from London in a couple of hours and intend on getting rather inebriated both before and after the match, here's to something to celebrate come half 7 tonight
COYR
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - ThePromisedLand - 25-08-2018
^ Great post - 100% agree ^
RE: We Need To Play 4-4-2!? - stirred - 25-08-2018
<<Hi, my first post so apologies if the formatting comes out wrong>>
I agree a traditional 4-4-2 is too easily exploited in midfield these days, but it seems we’re lacking some presence up the field so I was wondering how we could get more attacking options on the pitch. I had MOTD on and saw Spurs move to the diamond formation, which made me wonder if we couldn’t do that. To some degree you can fill in the players, eg centre halves, but how about:
———————-Pants————————-
Byram——CB1———CB2——-Robinson
——————Gueddy/Colback—————
———Cash—————————Ozzy——
———————-Carvalho———————
———-Soudanhi————Grabs————
It’s important you get your fullbacks supporting for width, but Byram by all accounts is an attacking fullback - our Trippier? - and while I don’t know Robinson, with Osborne ahead of him I would hope we have the left covered. The 2 mids Cash and Osborne can operate wide but also have high work rate for the middle of the park. And as modern day football expects, when not in possession you’d expect one of the strikers (Soudanhi?) to be helping out the midfield.
You’ve also got flexibility in the formation. The above can switch to more like a 3-5-2 without needing to use a sub - Robinson becomes the third (left-sided) centre half with Byram and Ozzy the wingbacks. And because Robinson knows the full back position we should have decent cover behind Osborne that we’ve sometimes lacked.
Without getting hung up too much on the formation, ‘cos things should be a bit fluid, the fundamental difference is that we’re only playing one deeper lying midfielder not 2, and getting more bodies up field to take the game to them and win back and retain possession further upfield. And you can change your personnel depending on the opposition and home/away, e.g. pop Dias in when you’re at home to QPR! And surely it would be more exciting to watch?
Anyway, I don’t get to matches very often these days living down South, so feel free to criticize!