NFFC Financial Talk

[wassy04]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

Don't know of many claiming we are innocent. What I see is people criticising what appears to be an instant point deduction and feeling it is incredibly harsh (I am one of those). Plenty of other punishments can be dished out including fines, transfer bans etc.. depending on the severity of the breach which would also show enforcement of rules and act as a deterrent to others.

Chelsea for example have taken the piss spending a billion in a short space of time. That is so much worse than what we or Everton have done so I would expect them to receive a harsher punishment when the time comes

Interesting you group Everton in with us now as before our charge the majority if not all fans were demanding Everton be punished for a similar offence to us (myself included). I still believe Everton's was worse than ours but they are in the same ballpark.

I agree with SM, the rules were there we chose to not follow them for whatever reason, regardless of how flawed they are. If our case was the rules are unfair then we are in trouble! 

I did read yesterday they voted in the new rules for 2025 onwards with a transition year to match UEFA's rules. 70% of turnover can be spent on wages or something like that.

[BomberBowyer]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

Fair points. We didn’t have the same loss threshold though as could only lose £61m and also were at a disadvantage because we were going to be competing against established prem sides and also those promoted with us had the basis of a prem side having not long been relegated and having the benefit of parachute payments plus in the case of Bournemouth, heavily improved their squad in the previous January. Fact for me is that had we sold BJ before 30/6 this would all be irrelevent and no one would be talking about us gaining an advantage or not and all the talk of 30 signings, reckless spending etc would be old news.

[wassy04]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

We are no where near veering towards Derby, don’t you dare compare us to them. We broke the rules simple. What grind my gears is that the whole situation is farcical we won’t know how many points are needed with 5 games left. Why wait a week to do the hearing why can’t they do it today if the case was submitted at the end of January.

Yeah this bit is ridiculous and legitimately because of this these rules aren't really fit for purpose.

[wassy04]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

Fair points. We didn’t have the same loss threshold though as could only lose £61m and also were at a disadvantage because we were going to be competing against established prem sides and also those promoted with us had the basis of a prem side having not long been relegated and having the benefit of parachute payments plus in the case of Bournemouth, heavily improved their squad in the previous January. Fact for me is that had we sold BJ before 30/6 this would all be irrelevent and no one would be talking about us gaining an advantage or not and all the talk of 30 signings, reckless spending etc would be old news.

Yep 100%, was this all worth that extra 15m?

Although I will say in defence of the club at that point Everton hadn't been given the points penalty and I suspect the ramifications of the decision were less obvious.

[BomberBowyer]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

Don't know of many claiming we are innocent. What I see is people criticising what appears to be an instant point deduction and feeling it is incredibly harsh (I am one of those). Plenty of other punishments can be dished out including fines, transfer bans etc.. depending on the severity of the breach which would also show enforcement of rules and act as a deterrent to others.

Chelsea for example have taken the piss spending a billion in a short space of time. That is so much worse than what we or Everton have done so I would expect them to receive a harsher punishment when the time comes

Interesting you group Everton in with us now as before our charge the majority if not all fans were demanding Everton be punished for a similar offence to us (myself included). I still believe Everton's was worse than ours but they are in the same ballpark.

I agree with SM, the rules were there we chose to not follow them for whatever reason, regardless of how flawed they are. If our case was the rules are unfair then we are in trouble! 

I did read yesterday they voted in the new rules for 2025 onwards with a transition year to match UEFA's rules. 70% of turnover can be spent on wages or something like that.

Yep we knew the rules and we breached them but the unanswered question for me is. Did we do so with that intention all along (in which case we deserve everything we get) or did we believe we were within the limit based on what we had been told and something changed? Another question for me is whether this just a technical breach ie we have agreement from the PL re BJ’s sale being able to be backdated to last years accounts etc but technically at the 30/6 we were over the limit so have to be charged?

[Marinakis Red]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

This is even more ridiculous, I think all of us are accepting we are in breach of the rules, those idiots still don't think they did anything wrong. 

With the wording of the Everton outcome is what has annoyed me with anyone deemed to be in breach gaining a sporting advantage, how on earth is our breach gaining a sporting advantage SM?

I'll look forward to you explaining that to me when we had a squad deficit, a financial deficit with us the only team in the league allowed to post only a 61m loss, against every single team in the league. how has the amount we spent gained us a sporting advantage after the other 19 teams have spent heavier than we have over the 3 year cycle we are being judged for? 

I'm accepting the breach but not the tone in which we are being judged when it was never a level playing field to start with. 

Parachute payments to teams going to the championship certainly does quantify giving you a sporting advantage against everyone else in the league, and we managed to navigate a way out of that league against teams that did have those advantages but now we've gone up we were not allowed to compete on a level playing field.

That is not derby that is common sense and those 2 do not go together.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

Fair points. We didn’t have the same loss threshold though as could only lose £61m and also were at a disadvantage because we were going to be competing against established prem sides and also those promoted with us had the basis of a prem side having not long been relegated and having the benefit of parachute payments plus in the case of Bournemouth, heavily improved their squad in the previous January. Fact for me is that had we sold BJ before 30/6 this would all be irrelevent and no one would be talking about us gaining an advantage or not and all the talk of 30 signings, reckless spending etc would be old news.

I get what you are saying about Bournemouth however lets say we were promoted 2 years ago with Luton and Middlesboro, neither of who would have any parachute payments, by exceeding spending we would have gained an advantage on them. You can’t adjust the rules according to who goes up.

We all agree the system is flawed and it sucks it’s about to be reviewed. The reds makes a point about not hearing the outcome until the end of the season and this bit does give me hope actually. The PL knows it would look shambolic if relegation outcome was decided by a panel after the season has finished so its in their interest for them not to risk that happening. In my thinking that increases our chance of a escaping with a suspended penalty. I realise I am going into a bit of fantasy myself with that one.

[BomberBowyer]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

Fair points. We didn’t have the same loss threshold though as could only lose £61m and also were at a disadvantage because we were going to be competing against established prem sides and also those promoted with us had the basis of a prem side having not long been relegated and having the benefit of parachute payments plus in the case of Bournemouth, heavily improved their squad in the previous January. Fact for me is that had we sold BJ before 30/6 this would all be irrelevent and no one would be talking about us gaining an advantage or not and all the talk of 30 signings, reckless spending etc would be old news.

Yep 100%, was this all worth that extra 15m?

Although I will say in defence of the club at that point Everton hadn't been given the points penalty and I suspect the ramifications of the decision were less obvious.

Agreed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Imagine as well at that point the noise from fans had we sold BJ for £30m! Especially when some were comparing him to and/or saying he was better than Gordon who went to Newcastle for more.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

This is even more ridiculous, I think all of us are accepting we are in breach of the rules, those idiots still don't think they did anything wrong. 

With the wording of the Everton outcome is what has annoyed me with anyone deemed to be in breach gaining a sporting advantage, how on earth is our breach gaining a sporting advantage SM?

I'll look forward to you explaining that to me when we had a squad deficit, a financial deficit with us the only team in the league allowed to post only a 61m loss, against every single team in the league. how has the amount we spent gained us a sporting advantage after the other 19 teams have spent heavier than we have over the 3 year cycle we are being judged for? 

I'm accepting the breach but not the tone in which we are being judged when it was never a level playing field to start with. 

Parachute payments to teams going to the championship certainly does quantify giving you a sporting advantage against everyone else in the league, and we managed to navigate a way out of that league against teams that did have those advantages but now we've gone up we were not allowed to compete on a level playing field.

That is not derby that is common sense and those 2 do not go together.

See my post above. Had we been promoted alongside Luton and Boro we would have spent more than those teams and gained an advantage. You cant make up the rules as you go along.
Its one of the reasons in the Championship we all moaned that parachute payments were unfair.

[Marinakis Red]

Sorry guys but think some comments are veering towards the Derbyesque Mel Morris is innocent type.

P&S is looking at a rolling 3 years in isolation. If your argument about sporting advantage applied then by the same logic Everton could claim their squad cost is a fifth of Liverpool’s and they should be able to spend £800m to be able to compete with their neighbours.

We theoretically had the same allowable loss as any other promoted team and by breaking that allowable loss we could have gained an advantage on them.

Im not denying the rules are unfair or that the system is hopelessly skewed towards the bigger teams. However that is the monster we created back in 1993 and unfortunately the monster we are aiming to be a  part of.

This is even more ridiculous, I think all of us are accepting we are in breach of the rules, those idiots still don't think they did anything wrong. 

With the wording of the Everton outcome is what has annoyed me with anyone deemed to be in breach gaining a sporting advantage, how on earth is our breach gaining a sporting advantage SM?

I'll look forward to you explaining that to me when we had a squad deficit, a financial deficit with us the only team in the league allowed to post only a 61m loss, against every single team in the league. how has the amount we spent gained us a sporting advantage after the other 19 teams have spent heavier than we have over the 3 year cycle we are being judged for? 

I'm accepting the breach but not the tone in which we are being judged when it was never a level playing field to start with. 

Parachute payments to teams going to the championship certainly does quantify giving you a sporting advantage against everyone else in the league, and we managed to navigate a way out of that league against teams that did have those advantages but now we've gone up we were not allowed to compete on a level playing field.

That is not derby that is common sense and those 2 do not go together.

See my post above. Had we been promoted alongside Luton and Boro we would have spent more than those teams and gained an advantage. You cant make up the rules as you go along.
Its one of the reasons in the Championship we all moaned that parachute payments were unfair.

You cannot speak hyperthitically when making a legal judgement, they didn't go up, we are not being judged hyperthetically. We are being deemed to have gained a sporting advantage against the other 19 teams competing in the prem last year over a 3 year rolling cycle. 

Middlesborough as a club have had lots of parachute payments over recent times and had sporting advantages against others including us in the championship. Remember when they paid us 15m for Britt. 

Luton as a club have been brilliant. Nothing more to say on them. 

But again on facts of last year and the 3 year cycle we are being judged for, could you kindly explain how we gained a sporting advantage on the other 19 teams that we competed against last season over a 3 year rolling period? As per anyone deemed to be in breach by the outcome of the commission on Everton's appeal?

[BomberBowyer]

Keep hearing about Liverpools ling injury list etc like no one else has ever suffered similar. Makes me wonder if the injuries we suffered last season might be used as part of our mitigation? Afterall, had Henderson not been injured we wouldn’t have gone for Navas, Awoniyi stays fit then no Wood just as a couple of examples. Granted our recruitment strategy didn’t help either but just a thought.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

By the way, I know I touched a nerve with some of you with a Derby comparison. Think its necessary, there is a bit of self righteous “we complied with the spirit of the rules, we kept the league informed” type of thing.
Look at it from the outside. We were in the top 5 spenders in Europe and went around singing 30 signings who gives a xxxx. Don’t expect other teams to give us any sympathy.