NFFC Financial Talk

[wassy04]

It wasn't just the promotion bonuses that the EFL allowed but also the £12m+ for Covid, which lets face it is a realistic figure, not £2.5m as allowed.

I did a back of the fag packet calculation and we lost over 16m in gate money during Covid, and yet a claim for 12.5m, which was originally passed by the EFL, was rejected by the PL

There’s those moving goalposts again….
If you were in the EFL you can only have £13m a year losses, the PL £35m.
If you were in the EFL you can only have a ‘set fee’ of £2.5m for covid (despite having attendances 25-30k a game) but in the PL fill your boots almost 100 times more.
Oh, and when you go over your measly limit, it’s ‘more’ than the Everton breach so the potential for a high points deduction is greater.

I don’t know about the promotion bonuses but if they were ratified in one league and not in the PL then there’s clearly a case that the transitional arrangements for promoted clubs aren’t equitable.
Jeez, even wassy should be able to see it’s a stacked deck! Lol

In other news, Kieran maguire continues to prove what a self-important publicity seeking pr1ck he is.
Apparently now has said our wages were out of control and we have lost all sympathy for our breach. 
From whom exactly, Kieran? 

Once again selective accounting ignoring the overall facts in the case- ie having a legacy championship squad of wages who weren’t good enough, plus limited time to attract a whole new squad for the PL (after the playoffs) plus not being established and without a core squad to attract new players there’s clearly a salary premium that was required. I’m not justifying some of the waste or coin tosses that came up tails not heads, but FFS this guy boils my piss. The salary total will be much more in line next season once the chaff has been fully shaken out.

I’d love to see someone like Darren Fletcher invite him for a high profile interview and ambush the c**t. Rant over!

No-one is suggesting the system is good or fair, I was just saying that I don't see the point of lawsuits as we're not going to get anything from it, aside from the appeal.

[Forest1970]

It wasn't just the promotion bonuses that the EFL allowed but also the £12m+ for Covid, which lets face it is a realistic figure, not £2.5m as allowed.

I did a back of the fag packet calculation and we lost over 16m in gate money during Covid, and yet a claim for 12.5m, which was originally passed by the EFL, was rejected by the PL

There’s those moving goalposts again….
If you were in the EFL you can only have £13m a year losses, the PL £35m.
If you were in the EFL you can only have a ‘set fee’ of £2.5m for covid (despite having attendances 25-30k a game) but in the PL fill your boots almost 100 times more.
Oh, and when you go over your measly limit, it’s ‘more’ than the Everton breach so the potential for a high points deduction is greater.

I don’t know about the promotion bonuses but if they were ratified in one league and not in the PL then there’s clearly a case that the transitional arrangements for promoted clubs aren’t equitable.
Jeez, even wassy should be able to see it’s a stacked deck! Lol

In other news, Kieran maguire continues to prove what a self-important publicity seeking pr1ck he is.
Apparently now has said our wages were out of control and we have lost all sympathy for our breach. 
From whom exactly, Kieran? 

Once again selective accounting ignoring the overall facts in the case- ie having a legacy championship squad of wages who weren’t good enough, plus limited time to attract a whole new squad for the PL (after the playoffs) plus not being established and without a core squad to attract new players there’s clearly a salary premium that was required. I’m not justifying some of the waste or coin tosses that came up tails not heads, but FFS this guy boils my piss. The salary total will be much more in line next season once the chaff has been fully shaken out.

I’d love to see someone like Darren Fletcher invite him for a high profile interview and ambush the c**t. Rant over!

No-one is suggesting the system is good or fair, I was just saying that I don't see the point of lawsuits as we're not going to get anything from it, aside from the appeal.

Well get all the teams who will and are getting effected by this to stand together and then things will have to change or I can see the big 6,7,8 teams leaving the Premier League because is won't suit their bank balance and dodgy transfer dealings that they're constantly getting away with. But at the end of the day teams can't threaten doing things through the legal system and not follow through or they'll be a laughing stock which is why if the big man says thats what he'll do then I trust he will do it.

[Jean_claude_killy]

It wasn't just the promotion bonuses that the EFL allowed but also the £12m+ for Covid, which lets face it is a realistic figure, not £2.5m as allowed.

I did a back of the fag packet calculation and we lost over 16m in gate money during Covid, and yet a claim for 12.5m, which was originally passed by the EFL, was rejected by the PL

There’s those moving goalposts again….
If you were in the EFL you can only have £13m a year losses, the PL £35m.
If you were in the EFL you can only have a ‘set fee’ of £2.5m for covid (despite having attendances 25-30k a game) but in the PL fill your boots almost 100 times more.
Oh, and when you go over your measly limit, it’s ‘more’ than the Everton breach so the potential for a high points deduction is greater.

I don’t know about the promotion bonuses but if they were ratified in one league and not in the PL then there’s clearly a case that the transitional arrangements for promoted clubs aren’t equitable.
Jeez, even wassy should be able to see it’s a stacked deck! Lol

In other news, Kieran maguire continues to prove what a self-important publicity seeking pr1ck he is.
Apparently now has said our wages were out of control and we have lost all sympathy for our breach. 
From whom exactly, Kieran? 

Once again selective accounting ignoring the overall facts in the case- ie having a legacy championship squad of wages who weren’t good enough, plus limited time to attract a whole new squad for the PL (after the playoffs) plus not being established and without a core squad to attract new players there’s clearly a salary premium that was required. I’m not justifying some of the waste or coin tosses that came up tails not heads, but FFS this guy boils my piss. The salary total will be much more in line next season once the chaff has been fully shaken out.

I’d love to see someone like Darren Fletcher invite him for a high profile interview and ambush the c**t. Rant over!

The losses for our first year back were 34.5m which is inside the limit - Maguire and Fletcher can say what they want about being out of control, the facts speak for themselves.

The reason we have breached the rules is down to the PL not accepting issues previously ratified by the EFL.

If those issues have been ratified incorrectly then it is down to the EFL to punish us and not the PL.

Then there is the notice we were given which only rubbed salt into the wounds

[wassy04]

It wasn't just the promotion bonuses that the EFL allowed but also the £12m+ for Covid, which lets face it is a realistic figure, not £2.5m as allowed.

I did a back of the fag packet calculation and we lost over 16m in gate money during Covid, and yet a claim for 12.5m, which was originally passed by the EFL, was rejected by the PL

There’s those moving goalposts again….
If you were in the EFL you can only have £13m a year losses, the PL £35m.
If you were in the EFL you can only have a ‘set fee’ of £2.5m for covid (despite having attendances 25-30k a game) but in the PL fill your boots almost 100 times more.
Oh, and when you go over your measly limit, it’s ‘more’ than the Everton breach so the potential for a high points deduction is greater.

I don’t know about the promotion bonuses but if they were ratified in one league and not in the PL then there’s clearly a case that the transitional arrangements for promoted clubs aren’t equitable.
Jeez, even wassy should be able to see it’s a stacked deck! Lol

In other news, Kieran maguire continues to prove what a self-important publicity seeking pr1ck he is.
Apparently now has said our wages were out of control and we have lost all sympathy for our breach. 
From whom exactly, Kieran? 

Once again selective accounting ignoring the overall facts in the case- ie having a legacy championship squad of wages who weren’t good enough, plus limited time to attract a whole new squad for the PL (after the playoffs) plus not being established and without a core squad to attract new players there’s clearly a salary premium that was required. I’m not justifying some of the waste or coin tosses that came up tails not heads, but FFS this guy boils my piss. The salary total will be much more in line next season once the chaff has been fully shaken out.

I’d love to see someone like Darren Fletcher invite him for a high profile interview and ambush the c**t. Rant over!

The losses for our first year back were 34.5m which is inside the limit - Maguire and Fletcher can say what they want about being out of control, the facts speak for themselves.

The reason we have breached the rules is down to the PL not accepting issues previously ratified by the EFL.

If those issues have been ratified incorrectly then it is down to the EFL to punish us and not the PL.

Then there is the notice we were given which only rubbed salt into the wounds

Based on the commission report it seems unclear on that notice issue. The Covid thing was definitely only notified in June and I agree I'm not really sure how we're meant to adjust for that in that timeframe.

The bonus thing though, unless I missed it (?), the commission report makes no mention of when we became aware of this issue. I feel like this is likely the crux of our appeal and will come out then. If we only found out in June, it's difficult to justify that we'd be able to correct for it and therefore you'd think they should exclude them.

I'm not sure your argument about the two organisations holds much weight though, they are different leagues, different bodies and have different rules. On promotion we essentially agreed to follow all the PL rules (and accept the PL riches), if that means re-ratifying some of our FFP issues that's up to us to read the new rules and make sure we follow them. 

If you join UEFA competition and fail their rules, you couldn't go back and say "well we met the rules that we were under at the time".

[The reds]

It wasn't just the promotion bonuses that the EFL allowed but also the £12m+ for Covid, which lets face it is a realistic figure, not £2.5m as allowed.

I did a back of the fag packet calculation and we lost over 16m in gate money during Covid, and yet a claim for 12.5m, which was originally passed by the EFL, was rejected by the PL

There’s those moving goalposts again….
If you were in the EFL you can only have £13m a year losses, the PL £35m.
If you were in the EFL you can only have a ‘set fee’ of £2.5m for covid (despite having attendances 25-30k a game) but in the PL fill your boots almost 100 times more.
Oh, and when you go over your measly limit, it’s ‘more’ than the Everton breach so the potential for a high points deduction is greater.

I don’t know about the promotion bonuses but if they were ratified in one league and not in the PL then there’s clearly a case that the transitional arrangements for promoted clubs aren’t equitable.
Jeez, even wassy should be able to see it’s a stacked deck! Lol

In other news, Kieran maguire continues to prove what a self-important publicity seeking pr1ck he is.
Apparently now has said our wages were out of control and we have lost all sympathy for our breach. 
From whom exactly, Kieran? 

Once again selective accounting ignoring the overall facts in the case- ie having a legacy championship squad of wages who weren’t good enough, plus limited time to attract a whole new squad for the PL (after the playoffs) plus not being established and without a core squad to attract new players there’s clearly a salary premium that was required. I’m not justifying some of the waste or coin tosses that came up tails not heads, but FFS this guy boils my piss. The salary total will be much more in line next season once the chaff has been fully shaken out.

I’d love to see someone like Darren Fletcher invite him for a high profile interview and ambush the c**t. Rant over!

The losses for our first year back were 34.5m which is inside the limit - Maguire and Fletcher can say what they want about being out of control, the facts speak for themselves.

The reason we have breached the rules is down to the PL not accepting issues previously ratified by the EFL.

If those issues have been ratified incorrectly then it is down to the EFL to punish us and not the PL.

Then there is the notice we were given which only rubbed salt into the wounds

Based on the commission report it seems unclear on that notice issue. The Covid thing was definitely only notified in June and I agree I'm not really sure how we're meant to adjust for that in that timeframe.

The bonus thing though, unless I missed it (?), the commission report makes no mention of when we became aware of this issue. I feel like this is likely the crux of our appeal and will come out then. If we only found out in June, it's difficult to justify that we'd be able to correct for it and therefore you'd think they should exclude them.

I'm not sure your argument about the two organisations holds much weight though, they are different leagues, different bodies and have different rules. On promotion we essentially agreed to follow all the PL rules (and accept the PL riches), if that means re-ratifying some of our FFP issues that's up to us to read the new rules and make sure we follow them. 

If you join UEFA competition and fail their rules, you couldn't go back and say "well we met the rules that we were under at the time".

5.8       On 31 March 2023, Forest provided the Premier League with its PSR Calculation based on a projected league position of 12th at the end of the 2022/23 season. This PSR Calculation also included the Covid Add-Back of £12,178,000 for FY22. Forest was also looking to add-back the promotion costs of c. £20m that it had incurred (largely in the form of contractual bonuses to its playing squad and the coaches) when it secured promotion to the Premier League.

5.9       On 2 June 2023, the Premier League informed Forest, in relation to its PSR Calculation for the 2022/23 season, inter alia that: it would only allow a Covid Add-Back of £2.5m for FY22, not the entire £12,178,000 claimed and it would not allow Forest to claim any allowances for costs linked to promotion from the EFL Championship

There is the proof...

[Jean_claude_killy]

It wasn't just the promotion bonuses that the EFL allowed but also the £12m+ for Covid, which lets face it is a realistic figure, not £2.5m as allowed.

I did a back of the fag packet calculation and we lost over 16m in gate money during Covid, and yet a claim for 12.5m, which was originally passed by the EFL, was rejected by the PL

There’s those moving goalposts again….
If you were in the EFL you can only have £13m a year losses, the PL £35m.
If you were in the EFL you can only have a ‘set fee’ of £2.5m for covid (despite having attendances 25-30k a game) but in the PL fill your boots almost 100 times more.
Oh, and when you go over your measly limit, it’s ‘more’ than the Everton breach so the potential for a high points deduction is greater.

I don’t know about the promotion bonuses but if they were ratified in one league and not in the PL then there’s clearly a case that the transitional arrangements for promoted clubs aren’t equitable.
Jeez, even wassy should be able to see it’s a stacked deck! Lol

In other news, Kieran maguire continues to prove what a self-important publicity seeking pr1ck he is.
Apparently now has said our wages were out of control and we have lost all sympathy for our breach. 
From whom exactly, Kieran? 

Once again selective accounting ignoring the overall facts in the case- ie having a legacy championship squad of wages who weren’t good enough, plus limited time to attract a whole new squad for the PL (after the playoffs) plus not being established and without a core squad to attract new players there’s clearly a salary premium that was required. I’m not justifying some of the waste or coin tosses that came up tails not heads, but FFS this guy boils my piss. The salary total will be much more in line next season once the chaff has been fully shaken out.

I’d love to see someone like Darren Fletcher invite him for a high profile interview and ambush the c**t. Rant over!

The losses for our first year back were 34.5m which is inside the limit - Maguire and Fletcher can say what they want about being out of control, the facts speak for themselves.

The reason we have breached the rules is down to the PL not accepting issues previously ratified by the EFL.

If those issues have been ratified incorrectly then it is down to the EFL to punish us and not the PL.

Then there is the notice we were given which only rubbed salt into the wounds

Based on the commission report it seems unclear on that notice issue. The Covid thing was definitely only notified in June and I agree I'm not really sure how we're meant to adjust for that in that timeframe.

The bonus thing though, unless I missed it (?), the commission report makes no mention of when we became aware of this issue. I feel like this is likely the crux of our appeal and will come out then. If we only found out in June, it's difficult to justify that we'd be able to correct for it and therefore you'd think they should exclude them.

I'm not sure your argument about the two organisations holds much weight though, they are different leagues, different bodies and have different rules. On promotion we essentially agreed to follow all the PL rules (and accept the PL riches), if that means re-ratifying some of our FFP issues that's up to us to read the new rules and make sure we follow them. 

If you join UEFA competition and fail their rules, you couldn't go back and say "well we met the rules that we were under at the time".

In the second Everton judgement it alludes to EFL PSR rules not transposing to PL interpretation; if this is the case, how on earth can the PL make an arbitrary decision to punish us for something ratified by the EFL

[wassy04]

I did a back of the fag packet calculation and we lost over 16m in gate money during Covid, and yet a claim for 12.5m, which was originally passed by the EFL, was rejected by the PL

There’s those moving goalposts again….
If you were in the EFL you can only have £13m a year losses, the PL £35m.
If you were in the EFL you can only have a ‘set fee’ of £2.5m for covid (despite having attendances 25-30k a game) but in the PL fill your boots almost 100 times more.
Oh, and when you go over your measly limit, it’s ‘more’ than the Everton breach so the potential for a high points deduction is greater.

I don’t know about the promotion bonuses but if they were ratified in one league and not in the PL then there’s clearly a case that the transitional arrangements for promoted clubs aren’t equitable.
Jeez, even wassy should be able to see it’s a stacked deck! Lol

In other news, Kieran maguire continues to prove what a self-important publicity seeking pr1ck he is.
Apparently now has said our wages were out of control and we have lost all sympathy for our breach. 
From whom exactly, Kieran? 

Once again selective accounting ignoring the overall facts in the case- ie having a legacy championship squad of wages who weren’t good enough, plus limited time to attract a whole new squad for the PL (after the playoffs) plus not being established and without a core squad to attract new players there’s clearly a salary premium that was required. I’m not justifying some of the waste or coin tosses that came up tails not heads, but FFS this guy boils my piss. The salary total will be much more in line next season once the chaff has been fully shaken out.

I’d love to see someone like Darren Fletcher invite him for a high profile interview and ambush the c**t. Rant over!

The losses for our first year back were 34.5m which is inside the limit - Maguire and Fletcher can say what they want about being out of control, the facts speak for themselves.

The reason we have breached the rules is down to the PL not accepting issues previously ratified by the EFL.

If those issues have been ratified incorrectly then it is down to the EFL to punish us and not the PL.

Then there is the notice we were given which only rubbed salt into the wounds

Based on the commission report it seems unclear on that notice issue. The Covid thing was definitely only notified in June and I agree I'm not really sure how we're meant to adjust for that in that timeframe.

The bonus thing though, unless I missed it (?), the commission report makes no mention of when we became aware of this issue. I feel like this is likely the crux of our appeal and will come out then. If we only found out in June, it's difficult to justify that we'd be able to correct for it and therefore you'd think they should exclude them.

I'm not sure your argument about the two organisations holds much weight though, they are different leagues, different bodies and have different rules. On promotion we essentially agreed to follow all the PL rules (and accept the PL riches), if that means re-ratifying some of our FFP issues that's up to us to read the new rules and make sure we follow them. 

If you join UEFA competition and fail their rules, you couldn't go back and say "well we met the rules that we were under at the time".

5.8       On 31 March 2023, Forest provided the Premier League with its PSR Calculation based on a projected league position of 12th at the end of the 2022/23 season. This PSR Calculation also included the Covid Add-Back of £12,178,000 for FY22. Forest was also looking to add-back the promotion costs of c. £20m that it had incurred (largely in the form of contractual bonuses to its playing squad and the coaches) when it secured promotion to the Premier League.

5.9       On 2 June 2023, the Premier League informed Forest, in relation to its PSR Calculation for the 2022/23 season, inter alia that: it would only allow a Covid Add-Back of £2.5m for FY22, not the entire £12,178,000 claimed and it would not allow Forest to claim any allowances for costs linked to promotion from the EFL Championship

There is the proof...

Fair enough! That does seem to imply we only knew about it on the 2 June 2023, surely that is a pretty big mitigation if so? This confuses me as to why our entire defence wasn't just based around this issue?

[Salvatore Matrecano]

Not saying I agree with it but the answer to the above is here:

12.61 Secondly, those losses were increased by approximately £9.678m due to Forest being unable to claim Covid-19 Add-Backs that it reasonably and/or genuinely and honestly believed would be allowable (and which were notified to the EFL but not subsequently accepted by the Premier League). Forest accepts that its belief was incorrect. The following is common ground between the parties: 12.61.1 Forest acted in good faith when originally claiming the add back whilst in the EFL; 12.61.2 It was not notified it was disallowed as an Add-Back by the EFL; 12.61.3 It had a genuine belief that it was permitted to maintain the Add-Back up to 2 June 2023; 12.61.4 It was, however, mistaken in that belief.

[Sausage Roll]

I know it's obviously important to the outcome of this season but it's pretty depressing that there's far more talk about the PSR situation than there is about actual football at the moment.

What an unholy mess the Premier League have made of it all.

[The reds]

I know it's obviously important to the outcome of this season but it's pretty depressing that there's far more talk about the PSR situation than there is about actual football at the moment.

What an unholy mess the Premier League have made of it all.

Yes what an absolute mess, us Forest fans will keep debating until the appeal decision has been given.

[wassy04]

Not saying I agree with it but the answer to the above is here:

12.61 Secondly, those losses were increased by approximately £9.678m due to Forest being unable to claim Covid-19 Add-Backs that it reasonably and/or genuinely and honestly believed would be allowable (and which were notified to the EFL but not subsequently accepted by the Premier League). Forest accepts that its belief was incorrect. The following is common ground between the parties: 12.61.1 Forest acted in good faith when originally claiming the add back whilst in the EFL; 12.61.2 It was not notified it was disallowed as an Add-Back by the EFL; 12.61.3 It had a genuine belief that it was permitted to maintain the Add-Back up to 2 June 2023; 12.61.4 It was, however, mistaken in that belief.

"12.60 Forest submitted that it had to bear very considerable costs as a result of its somewhat unexpected promotion to the Premier League, amounting to £20.92m. These costs were not anticipated in its March 2022 EFL P&S submission and, in effect, penalised it for securing promotion by reducing its £35m allowable losses by £20.92m."

Funnily enough was just reading that too. This implies that the EFL have never ratified the promotion bonuses does it not? This line seems to imply we're disagreeing with the actual rules as opposed to the application of them.

[The reds]

Not saying I agree with it but the answer to the above is here:

12.61 Secondly, those losses were increased by approximately £9.678m due to Forest being unable to claim Covid-19 Add-Backs that it reasonably and/or genuinely and honestly believed would be allowable (and which were notified to the EFL but not subsequently accepted by the Premier League). Forest accepts that its belief was incorrect. The following is common ground between the parties: 12.61.1 Forest acted in good faith when originally claiming the add back whilst in the EFL; 12.61.2 It was not notified it was disallowed as an Add-Back by the EFL; 12.61.3 It had a genuine belief that it was permitted to maintain the Add-Back up to 2 June 2023; 12.61.4 It was, however, mistaken in that belief.

"12.60 Forest submitted that it had to bear very considerable costs as a result of its somewhat unexpected promotion to the Premier League, amounting to £20.92m. These costs were not anticipated in its March 2022 EFL P&S submission and, in effect, penalised it for securing promotion by reducing its £35m allowable losses by £20.92m."

Funnily enough was just reading that too. This implies that the EFL have never ratified the promotion bonuses does it not?

I don't think it does. We weren't even in the play offs then so why would we put forward promotion bonuses in our submission.

It notes that Forest was compliant in the EFL - That is in the commission report - 12.97. So what was excluded to be within the rules.