The Inquest Now The Dust Has Settled

[McDurban]

Even if Forest did make the playoffs they were never going to beat Brentford or Fulham.
The key point here, that several have already pointed out, ONE CENTRE FORWARD for a whole season.
That's the nut's and bolts of it.
What we needed was the 6'4 target man to see games out or steel a point or three.
We also needed an able backup to Grabban.

There was little wrong with the midfield, defence or wide areas.
There were however times when you wondered where the goal would come from.

[Paplane]

It seems like most people have got over the other night and now would prefer Sabri to stay on. Honestly, I disagree...I would completely agree if his tactics weren't so clearly negative and 'not to lose'. I think the comparison with Leeds throwing it away last year and Bielsa is a non-starter - the way they play football is completely different and they dominate teams, press, try to score...I would happily give that kind of manager the chance to build a club playing style.

Most of the support for continuing with Sabri is to build a style and not change again...I don't really want to build on a backs to the wall style and actually make it more entrenched by sticking with it when it has started to fail. This would then make it even harder to change to a more progressive style when the new manager comes in later this year (something I think will be inevitable as I don't believe we will suddenly develop a plan B etc etc and I can't see anything but us carrying on our poor form since February). Signings in January were pants, but we still have enough players available to play an adapted and more positive game than anything I've seen us try.

If Sabri was backed again, we'd hardly be left with a team full or Warnock type cloggers though would we? Who in our squad at the moment would you say couldn't adapt to a new system? Players are players, tactics are tactics.

I do agree with that point but lots of people seem to think that you build a club ethos and style for the academy teams to follow etc. Players can adapt, of course they can, but it probably does take a bit of time to change again. To be honest, your point helps the argument that we could change Sabri now and be ok going into the new season in a few weeks. 

It really does feel so much better when the manager does seem to be a genuinely likeable bloke and I do hate talking about people's livelihoods to be honest, but I really am unsure that we will be in a good place as a team and club if we stick with him - he just doesn't seem to want to dominate the teams we could dominate and that for me is a big problem for a club trying to be ambitious. He could learn before next season starts but he's messed up a few times this season and not changed but actually seemed to double down on the defensive side....and I personally don't buy into it being the players at his disposal

He's had one single senior striker to play with all season. One single player to carry the load up top for an entire season. He allows Cash and Ribeiro to advance up the field and supplement the attack - that's a modern way of doing things these days and the opposition have to try to counteract that. He has nothing to play with centrally in midfield. Semedo, Bostock, Carvalho all no-shows for whatever reason. Put a swashbuckling player like Geddy (in his pomp) in his midfield and take out yates and we look a completely different side.

Again, I do agree with your point, I would definitely be looking to strengthen up front and centre mid. But, perhaps Sabri's style has meant we haven't got the best out of the more attacking players we do have at our disposal. Maybe Mir isn't as crap as he seemed, Walker with a different manager perhaps (I would consider him a senior striker now having played over 150 times and being 23), I think Sammi could have played up front with Grabs etc. Point is, he has barely tried it and I'm sure he doesn't focus his coaching on it. And when we were playing poorly, he put on another CB when we already had 3 on the pitch. 
 
Similarly, why haven't our midfield players shown up more? Their talent or the system? It's quite easy to play the Watson way (not taking anything away from him, i do think he has done well), but sitting back does make it much harder to be swashbuckling further up the pitch as defenders don't need to worry about Watson advancing at speed.

I believe he's tried to play Lolley centrally behind Grabban and the same with Ameobi (dont ask me to quote which games) but on those occasions this hasn't worked particularly well. He also tried to play 3 CB's but that was an unmitigated disaster. So you cant say he hasn't been tempted on a few occasions to try to mix it up a bit.  It's all about players for me and I just think he's had an arm tied around his back since January. I've said it before on here, we have 11 good players and one system of playing that's brought relative sucess. If we deviate from either we're poor. We need additional quality options, not a new manager.

But to bring you back to your original point, in spite of all of this, you've still not convinced me that these players and any more that come along, couldn't play in say a Karanka team, or anyone else's side bar Warnock.

[Shawoddyred]

If Sabri was backed again, we'd hardly be left with a team full or Warnock type cloggers though would we? Who in our squad at the moment would you say couldn't adapt to a new system? Players are players, tactics are tactics.

I do agree with that point but lots of people seem to think that you build a club ethos and style for the academy teams to follow etc. Players can adapt, of course they can, but it probably does take a bit of time to change again. To be honest, your point helps the argument that we could change Sabri now and be ok going into the new season in a few weeks. 

It really does feel so much better when the manager does seem to be a genuinely likeable bloke and I do hate talking about people's livelihoods to be honest, but I really am unsure that we will be in a good place as a team and club if we stick with him - he just doesn't seem to want to dominate the teams we could dominate and that for me is a big problem for a club trying to be ambitious. He could learn before next season starts but he's messed up a few times this season and not changed but actually seemed to double down on the defensive side....and I personally don't buy into it being the players at his disposal

He's had one single senior striker to play with all season. One single player to carry the load up top for an entire season. He allows Cash and Ribeiro to advance up the field and supplement the attack - that's a modern way of doing things these days and the opposition have to try to counteract that. He has nothing to play with centrally in midfield. Semedo, Bostock, Carvalho all no-shows for whatever reason. Put a swashbuckling player like Geddy (in his pomp) in his midfield and take out yates and we look a completely different side.

Again, I do agree with your point, I would definitely be looking to strengthen up front and centre mid. But, perhaps Sabri's style has meant we haven't got the best out of the more attacking players we do have at our disposal. Maybe Mir isn't as crap as he seemed, Walker with a different manager perhaps (I would consider him a senior striker now having played over 150 times and being 23), I think Sammi could have played up front with Grabs etc. Point is, he has barely tried it and I'm sure he doesn't focus his coaching on it. And when we were playing poorly, he put on another CB when we already had 3 on the pitch. 
 
Similarly, why haven't our midfield players shown up more? Their talent or the system? It's quite easy to play the Watson way (not taking anything away from him, i do think he has done well), but sitting back does make it much harder to be swashbuckling further up the pitch as defenders don't need to worry about Watson advancing at speed.

I believe he's tried to play Lolley centrally behind Grabban and the same with Ameobi (dont ask me to quote which games) but on those occasions this hasn't worked particularly well. He also tried to play 3 CB's but that was an unmitigated disaster. So you cant say he hasn't been tempted on a few occasions to try to mix it up a bit.  It's all about players for me and I just think he's had an arm tied around his back since January. I've said it before on here, we have 11 good players and one system of playing that's brought relative sucess. If we deviate from either we're poor. We need additional quality options, not a new manager.

But to bring you back to your original point, in spite of all of this, you've still not convinced me that these players and any more that come along, couldn't play in say a Karanka team, or anyone else's side bar Warnock.

Haha, I'm not sure I was trying to convince you otherwise. I think the players we have could play in a Karanka team, I think we're arguing the same point - I'm advocating that we should be playing a more expansive game, even with these players, which for me unfortunately means I don't think Sabri is right for us and we should make the change now rather than beat the same drum going into next season. My point was, I don't think we will improve sufficiently under Sabri, even if our recruitment is incredible in the attacking positions. 

If it were your decision, would you stick with Sabri?

[Paplane]

I do agree with that point but lots of people seem to think that you build a club ethos and style for the academy teams to follow etc. Players can adapt, of course they can, but it probably does take a bit of time to change again. To be honest, your point helps the argument that we could change Sabri now and be ok going into the new season in a few weeks. 

It really does feel so much better when the manager does seem to be a genuinely likeable bloke and I do hate talking about people's livelihoods to be honest, but I really am unsure that we will be in a good place as a team and club if we stick with him - he just doesn't seem to want to dominate the teams we could dominate and that for me is a big problem for a club trying to be ambitious. He could learn before next season starts but he's messed up a few times this season and not changed but actually seemed to double down on the defensive side....and I personally don't buy into it being the players at his disposal

He's had one single senior striker to play with all season. One single player to carry the load up top for an entire season. He allows Cash and Ribeiro to advance up the field and supplement the attack - that's a modern way of doing things these days and the opposition have to try to counteract that. He has nothing to play with centrally in midfield. Semedo, Bostock, Carvalho all no-shows for whatever reason. Put a swashbuckling player like Geddy (in his pomp) in his midfield and take out yates and we look a completely different side.

Again, I do agree with your point, I would definitely be looking to strengthen up front and centre mid. But, perhaps Sabri's style has meant we haven't got the best out of the more attacking players we do have at our disposal. Maybe Mir isn't as crap as he seemed, Walker with a different manager perhaps (I would consider him a senior striker now having played over 150 times and being 23), I think Sammi could have played up front with Grabs etc. Point is, he has barely tried it and I'm sure he doesn't focus his coaching on it. And when we were playing poorly, he put on another CB when we already had 3 on the pitch. 
 
Similarly, why haven't our midfield players shown up more? Their talent or the system? It's quite easy to play the Watson way (not taking anything away from him, i do think he has done well), but sitting back does make it much harder to be swashbuckling further up the pitch as defenders don't need to worry about Watson advancing at speed.

I believe he's tried to play Lolley centrally behind Grabban and the same with Ameobi (dont ask me to quote which games) but on those occasions this hasn't worked particularly well. He also tried to play 3 CB's but that was an unmitigated disaster. So you cant say he hasn't been tempted on a few occasions to try to mix it up a bit.  It's all about players for me and I just think he's had an arm tied around his back since January. I've said it before on here, we have 11 good players and one system of playing that's brought relative sucess. If we deviate from either we're poor. We need additional quality options, not a new manager.

But to bring you back to your original point, in spite of all of this, you've still not convinced me that these players and any more that come along, couldn't play in say a Karanka team, or anyone else's side bar Warnock.

Haha, I'm not sure I was trying to convince you otherwise. I think the players we have could play in a Karanka team, I think we're arguing the same point - I'm advocating that we should be playing a more expansive game, even with these players, which for me unfortunately means I don't think Sabri is right for us and we should make the change now rather than beat the same drum going into next season. My point was, I don't think we will improve sufficiently under Sabri, even if our recruitment is incredible in the attacking positions. 

If it were your decision, would you stick with Sabri?

Yep. Definitely.

[Paplane]

He's had one single senior striker to play with all season. One single player to carry the load up top for an entire season. He allows Cash and Ribeiro to advance up the field and supplement the attack - that's a modern way of doing things these days and the opposition have to try to counteract that. He has nothing to play with centrally in midfield. Semedo, Bostock, Carvalho all no-shows for whatever reason. Put a swashbuckling player like Geddy (in his pomp) in his midfield and take out yates and we look a completely different side.

Again, I do agree with your point, I would definitely be looking to strengthen up front and centre mid. But, perhaps Sabri's style has meant we haven't got the best out of the more attacking players we do have at our disposal. Maybe Mir isn't as crap as he seemed, Walker with a different manager perhaps (I would consider him a senior striker now having played over 150 times and being 23), I think Sammi could have played up front with Grabs etc. Point is, he has barely tried it and I'm sure he doesn't focus his coaching on it. And when we were playing poorly, he put on another CB when we already had 3 on the pitch. 
 
Similarly, why haven't our midfield players shown up more? Their talent or the system? It's quite easy to play the Watson way (not taking anything away from him, i do think he has done well), but sitting back does make it much harder to be swashbuckling further up the pitch as defenders don't need to worry about Watson advancing at speed.

I believe he's tried to play Lolley centrally behind Grabban and the same with Ameobi (dont ask me to quote which games) but on those occasions this hasn't worked particularly well. He also tried to play 3 CB's but that was an unmitigated disaster. So you cant say he hasn't been tempted on a few occasions to try to mix it up a bit.  It's all about players for me and I just think he's had an arm tied around his back since January. I've said it before on here, we have 11 good players and one system of playing that's brought relative sucess. If we deviate from either we're poor. We need additional quality options, not a new manager.

But to bring you back to your original point, in spite of all of this, you've still not convinced me that these players and any more that come along, couldn't play in say a Karanka team, or anyone else's side bar Warnock.

Haha, I'm not sure I was trying to convince you otherwise. I think the players we have could play in a Karanka team, I think we're arguing the same point - I'm advocating that we should be playing a more expansive game, even with these players, which for me unfortunately means I don't think Sabri is right for us and we should make the change now rather than beat the same drum going into next season. My point was, I don't think we will improve sufficiently under Sabri, even if our recruitment is incredible in the attacking positions. 

If it were your decision, would you stick with Sabri?

Yep. Definitely.

He's had Dawson and Watson lapping it up this season and singing his praises. They've been around the block and their opinion was sought before MoN was sacked. They'll know more than we ever will.

[Plymouth red]

In all fairness our last three managers - Karanka, Mon and Sabri have all been defensive minded. Not since Warburton have we had a more attacking minded manager and that did not go well (albeit he wasn't given huge amounts of time.)

I do think you need a balance - you can't go gung ho in this league without a strong defence. I thought under Sabri we were building that defence but did not have the players to play any other way. That is what I assumed the January transfer window was going to fix but due to poor quality of player brought in left us with the same players we started with. I personally thought that at times this year we played some entertaining stuff and a lot of the focus has been our play since the restart which was very negative.

I would be inclined to give Sabri more time but on this occasion equip him with good championship players who are use to the demands of the league and are able to add to the quality of the squad. But that will come down to money and willingness to invest.

Who knows

[Paplane]

In all fairness our last three managers - Karanka, Mon and Sabri have all been defensive minded. Not since Warburton have we had a more attacking minded manager and that did not go well (albeit he wasn't given huge amounts of time.)

I do think you need a balance - you can't go gung ho in this league without a strong defence. I thought under Sabri we were building that defence but did not have the players to play any other way. That is what I assumed the January transfer window was going to fix but due to poor quality of player brought in left us with the same players we started with. I personally thought that at times this year we played some entertaining stuff and a lot of the focus has been our play since the restart which was very negative.

I would be inclined to give Sabri more time but on this occasion equip him with good championship players who are use to the demands of the league and are able to add to the quality of the squad. But that will come down to money and willingness to invest.

Who knows

That's pretty much it. 

Oh, and I disagree about Warburton. I don't think you can call his football 'attacking'. He was all about just keeping the ball. For long periods it was as dull as dishwater to watch and highly frustrating. IMO Karanka's football was the most sophisticated we've seen in a long time, but maybe that's all yesterday's arguments and we should concentrate on the here and now.

[wassy04]

In all fairness our last three managers - Karanka, Mon and Sabri have all been defensive minded. Not since Warburton have we had a more attacking minded manager and that did not go well (albeit he wasn't given huge amounts of time.)

I do think you need a balance - you can't go gung ho in this league without a strong defence. I thought under Sabri we were building that defence but did not have the players to play any other way. That is what I assumed the January transfer window was going to fix but due to poor quality of player brought in left us with the same players we started with. I personally thought that at times this year we played some entertaining stuff and a lot of the focus has been our play since the restart which was very negative.

I would be inclined to give Sabri more time but on this occasion equip him with good championship players who are use to the demands of the league and are able to add to the quality of the squad. But that will come down to money and willingness to invest.

Who knows

That's pretty much it. 

Oh, and I disagree about Warburton. I don't think you can call his football 'attacking'. He was all about just keeping the ball. For long periods it was as dull as dishwater to watch and highly frustrating. IMO Karanka's football was the most sophisticated we've seen in a long time, but maybe that's all yesterday's arguments and we should concentrate on the here and now.

Yep, and then one of the defenders (or keeper, ruined poor Smith) would make a mistake and we'd be chasing the game

[Paplane]

In all fairness our last three managers - Karanka, Mon and Sabri have all been defensive minded. Not since Warburton have we had a more attacking minded manager and that did not go well (albeit he wasn't given huge amounts of time.)

I do think you need a balance - you can't go gung ho in this league without a strong defence. I thought under Sabri we were building that defence but did not have the players to play any other way. That is what I assumed the January transfer window was going to fix but due to poor quality of player brought in left us with the same players we started with. I personally thought that at times this year we played some entertaining stuff and a lot of the focus has been our play since the restart which was very negative.

I would be inclined to give Sabri more time but on this occasion equip him with good championship players who are use to the demands of the league and are able to add to the quality of the squad. But that will come down to money and willingness to invest.

Who knows

That's pretty much it. 

Oh, and I disagree about Warburton. I don't think you can call his football 'attacking'. He was all about just keeping the ball. For long periods it was as dull as dishwater to watch and highly frustrating. IMO Karanka's football was the most sophisticated we've seen in a long time, but maybe that's all yesterday's arguments and we should concentrate on the here and now.

Yep, and then one of the defenders (or keeper, ruined poor Smith) would make a mistake and we'd be chasing the game

Yep, Smith's a decent enough stand-in keeper. We've seen that this last week (even though he let a shed loads of goals in on Wednesday lol). The insistence of play it out from the back football back then has set his career back 3 or 4 years.

[Widdow]

Come on Smith, should be 3rd level if he stays. He is a keeper who couldn't get into Mansfield team towards the end of the season on for their play off journey. back when he was on loan there for a year

[Strawberry Avenger]

Forest have turned choking into an art form.

With the January transfer business being lack lustre Forest did not have the depth
To put the play offs to the sword.

A Nicky Shorey reprise.

And it all hinged on the Sow pivot this time. A clearly...an unfit shadow...couldn't save Forest this time.

Getting a Sow replacement.. it was all they had to do.

And they had all season to get more ammunition to help out Grabban who did all he could to bang in 20.

SA.

[Paplane]

Everyone calling us serial chokers, bottlers etc. I beg to differ. Our neighbours down the a52 have made an art form of it for the last 5 years. For them to still be in this division after being in the play offs for the last 4 years, and in view of the money thats been pumped into that club in that time by Mad Mell, well thats what a team of bottlers look like.