Ryan Yates

[GaribaldiRED]

He certainly looked good last night. A few poor touches but the physicality to protect the ball or win it back. A little slow but great positionally. Made a big difference when he went off and his play enabled Gueds to do well too- Gueds was noticeably poorer after yates went off. Noticed him organising a wall and bossing other pros- definite leader. Smith was quite vocal too

Thanks for the info on Yates - definitely has a big future. Good to hear that Smith is getting vocal as well. Hopefully, learning some tricks from Pants.

[Kylos247]

Somebody who's been going to games please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen we look much more organised with Yates in the team as opposed to Watson? Imo I'd really like to see Yates in the team, gives us another approach rather than 2 very defensive minded players.

[audiosmee]

Somebody who's been going to games please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen we look much more organised with Yates in the team as opposed to Watson? Imo I'd really like to see Yates in the team, gives us another approach rather than 2 very defensive minded players.

Last night I would say that exactly- without necessarily being brilliant himself, the team around him was better with him being there. The next Chrissy Cohen with a smattering of Psycho? Club captain within 3 years I reckon...?

[Salvatore Matrecano]

There are people saying we dont want to put to much pressure on him here and risk him being exposed like Brereton and then saying we should loan him to another championship team. Rotherham is the name mentioned as an example, if they would actually want him, a team like that is going to be in a season long relegation scrap, is that the best place for Yates now? Didnt do Clough or Walker any good did it?

Personally would keep him here, if hes good enough AK will play him. If we are going to loan I would prefer to a top end L1 team (Donny, Burton?) until January only.

[BadDog]

Yates will be a future captain for us, calling it now... check the matchday forum. ;)

[GaribaldiRED]

Somebody who's been going to games please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen we look much more organised with Yates in the team as opposed to Watson? Imo I'd really like to see Yates in the team, gives us another approach rather than 2 very defensive minded players.

I see your point but I don't think that Yates has the right attributes to replace Watson. If you look at the formation we are playing (4-2-3-1) the 2 defensive players are extremely important. As far as I understand how Karanka wants to play (also taking into consideration how Mourinho is setting up his teams) the 2 defensive players have different roles and responsibilities:

One of the defensive midfielders should have excellent passing ability (and range) in order to be able to dictate the tempo of the match. I would say that currently our best DCM to cover this role is probably Adlène Guedioura, although he hasn't showed too much proof of being a deep lying playmaker in recent times. Behind Geddy we have Liam Bridcutt and to a lesser extent Jack Colback as I don't really classify him as a natural playmaker. Maybe Ben Osborn could have done a good job here and Ryan Yates as well if he is staying at Forest. But I believe Nikola Vukcevic would have been perfect  :)  Maybe this Liverpool guy Pedro Chirivella, that we have been linked with could do this job as well?

The other DCM is tasked with covering for defenders that are bringing the ball forward (usually the full backs). This second role requires a tactical intelligent player who's capable of reading the game and sniffing out where the biggest danger is going to be. I believe Ben Watson is our best player to occupy this role and probable is one of the best ones in the Championship at doing just this. Both Jack Colback and Liam Bridcutt are also more than capable of covering this role but I don't think that Ryan Yates is ready to have this kind of responsibility yet.

Just some thoughts!

[Salvatore Matrecano]

The closest we have to a central playmaker is probably Gueddy but as we know he blows hot and cold. We tried Osborn there before and it hasnt worked, our central 2 when we were dismantled by Preston were Osborn and Vaughn. Bridcutt I think is more defensive, For that reason I would keep Yates in the squad.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Yates will be a future captain for us, calling it now... check the matchday forum. ;)

I'm down with that.

SA.  :cool:

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Somebody who's been going to games please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen we look much more organised with Yates in the team as opposed to Watson? Imo I'd really like to see Yates in the team, gives us another approach rather than 2 very defensive minded players.

Last night I would say that exactly- without necessarily being brilliant himself, the team around him was better with him being there. The next Chrissy Cohen with a smattering of Psycho? Club captain within 3 years I reckon...?

Agreed.  With both posters there.  Seems to give us something we simply don't have in DCM?

There's only one Chrissy Psycho!  :D

SA.

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There are people saying we dont want to put to much pressure on him here and risk him being exposed like Brereton and then saying we should loan him to another championship team. Rotherham is the name mentioned as an example, if they would actually want him, a team like that is going to be in a season long relegation scrap, is that the best place for Yates now? Didnt do Clough or Walker any good did it?

Personally would keep him here, if hes good enough AK will play him. If we are going to loan I would prefer to a top end L1 team (Donny, Burton?) until January only.

If he's good enough...

(Some may argue, if he performs better than eg. Watson, Bridcutt, pre-season then why isn't he in the first team squad?)

Who has played better pre-season?  Watson, Bridcutt or Yates?

SA.

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Somebody who's been going to games please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen we look much more organised with Yates in the team as opposed to Watson? Imo I'd really like to see Yates in the team, gives us another approach rather than 2 very defensive minded players.

I see your point but I don't think that Yates has the right attributes to replace Watson. If you look at the formation we are playing (4-2-3-1) the 2 defensive players are extremely important. As far as I understand how Karanka wants to play (also taking into consideration how Mourinho is setting up his teams) the 2 defensive players have different roles and responsibilities:

One of the defensive midfielders should have excellent passing ability (and range) in order to be able to dictate the tempo of the match. I would say that currently our best DCM to cover this role is probably Adlène Guedioura, although he hasn't showed too much proof of being a deep lying playmaker in recent times. Behind Geddy we have Liam Bridcutt and to a lesser extent Jack Colback as I don't really classify him as a natural playmaker. Maybe Ben Osborn could have done a good job here and Ryan Yates as well if he is staying at Forest. But I believe Nikola Vukcevic would have been perfect  :)  Maybe this Liverpool guy Pedro Chirivella, that we have been linked with could do this job as well?

The other DCM is tasked with covering for defenders that are bringing the ball forward (usually the full backs). This second role requires a tactical intelligent player who's capable of reading the game and sniffing out where the biggest danger is going to be. I believe Ben Watson is our best player to occupy this role and probable is one of the best ones in the Championship at doing just this. Both Jack Colback and Liam Bridcutt are also more than capable of covering this role but I don't think that Ryan Yates is ready to have this kind of responsibility yet.

Just some thoughts!

I think CM is where games are won and lost.  So...

Nice to have some reasoned and detailed breakdown on our current CM/DCM options.  I enjoyed reading that.  Especially your slide rule over how 'Mourinho'/Karanka sets up his teams and the two roles of the pair of DCMs.

What do you think of the different combinations in the pre-season games so far?  There's been Watson and Bridcutt (which didn't seem a natural fit, two players I rate, though...) and then the other 'pairing' of Geddy and Yates which 'seemed' better.

Yates seems to bring more dynamism or presence to the team and gets it going.  I'd call it the 'Cohen' effect.  Unless I'm imagining things.  He also seems to have that desire and a knack for goals.  Two so far.

We haven't seen Watson and Colback together in pre-season so far.  (And they were very good together and ever present last season...)

I wonder if the back up pairing could be Yates and Geddy.  This would squeeze Bridcutt out of the squad unless Aitor plays him as the ACM at times to fortify the midfield (e.g. when he went off against Bolton, they scored, twice!).  I wouldn't want to lose Bridcutt.  Seemed to suit the more advance role.

I'm not sure if Watson is fully fit.  He seemed to have an off game in pre-season with Bridcutt.  There's no doubt to his quality, his vocal leadership and game management.  It's not always about being the quickest.  It's experience and know how.  And if you asked me before the season or before January if I'd like Watson and Dawson in the side I'd have torn anyone's arm off.  He, like Dawson, brings so much more.  Sure.  It will be Watson and Colback.  No doubt about that.

SA.

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The closest we have to a central playmaker is probably Gueddy but as we know he blows hot and cold. We tried Osborn there before and it hasnt worked, our central 2 when we were dismantled by Preston were Osborn and Vaughn. Bridcutt I think is more defensive, For that reason I would keep Yates in the squad.

But he seems to fit well with Yates?  They seem to work together quiet well.

(You were right about Os and Vaughan vs Preston...ouch.  OUCH!  No wonder Karanka wasn't pleased...)

Yates seems to offer more dynamism and presence.  One thing I noticed that didn't escape my attention from the NEP report.  Yates does the simple thing.  He doesn't dwell on the ball.  He gets it and looks to pass it FORWARDS!  Simply.  That's what gets teams going.  And Forest, even now, don't seem blessed with out and out pace.  So a simple, quick ball forwards (having won it quickly back...) is a sound way to put teams on the back foot and get the team ticking.

It creates a presence in midfield.  I'm not sure we have that dynamism in DCM?  Yates and Geddy seems progressive.  Maybe that's why he and Yates work well together?  Maybe it will be depend on who Forest play.

Watson, Colback as standard.  Liam to fortify against the strong midfields.  Yates and Geddy when legs are tired.  Part of Forest's problems in recent years is they haven't had the depth to bring on a new DCM pairing when the games needs changing up.  I can't think of a better pairing than Geddy and Yates to have sat on the bench.  

SA.

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The closest we have to a central playmaker is probably Gueddy but as we know he blows hot and cold. We tried Osborn there before and it hasnt worked, our central 2 when we were dismantled by Preston were Osborn and Vaughn. Bridcutt I think is more defensive, For that reason I would keep Yates in the squad.

Wasn't there rumour of 'us' being in for a playmaker from L*v*rp**l?

SA.

[GaribaldiRED]

SA, how do you include many replies into one post?

Now, regarding the best DCM pairing. I haven't seen enough yet to comment on that and it's still very early days. I would however have to go for Watson as I believe he's the best one to read the game and fill in where needed. AK does play with wing backs that have a clear responsibility to contribute in attack. For that to work you do need to have somebody to cover in defense if we lose the ball and the opposition is counter attacking. In these situations it really bugs me when supporters get on the back of Osborn (and Darikwa) for not understanding the FB role well enough when it's clearly the responsibility of the DCMs to cover (this is also the case when we play with a narrow defensive set up) - but let's not get into that here.

I agree with most of the comments regarding how our DCMs have played in pre-season. Watson has not played well, I think Bridcutt has played well as have Geddy and Yates. Colback I haven't seen yet but I fully expect him to be one of the preferred DCMs together with Watson. But it would have been great if AK played Yates instead. Yates can have a huge season if he's given the chance.

But still hoping for Vukcevic (even though I know it won't happen).

[McDurban]

SA, how do you include many replies into one post?

Now, regarding the best DCM pairing. I haven't seen enough yet to comment on that and it's still very early days. I would however have to go for Watson as I believe he's the best one to read the game and fill in where needed. AK does play with wing backs that have a clear responsibility to contribute in attack. For that to work you do need to have somebody to cover in defense if we lose the ball and the opposition is counter attacking. In these situations it really bugs me when supporters get on the back of Osborn (and Darikwa) for not understanding the FB role well enough when it's clearly the responsibility of the DCMs to cover (this is also the case when we play with a narrow defensive set up) - but let's not get into that here.

I agree with most of the comments regarding how our DCMs have played in pre-season. Watson has not played well, I think Bridcutt has played well as have Geddy and Yates. Colback I haven't seen yet but I fully expect him to be one of the preferred DCMs together with Watson. But it would have been great if AK played Yates instead. Yates can have a huge season if he's given the chance.

But still hoping for Vukcevic (even though I know it won't happen).

Reply to several posts one after the other.

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The closest we have to a central playmaker is probably Gueddy but as we know he blows hot and cold. We tried Osborn there before and it hasnt worked, our central 2 when we were dismantled by Preston were Osborn and Vaughn. Bridcutt I think is more defensive, For that reason I would keep Yates in the squad.

Like this, it should work...

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Somebody who's been going to games please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen we look much more organised with Yates in the team as opposed to Watson? Imo I'd really like to see Yates in the team, gives us another approach rather than 2 very defensive minded players.

Last night I would say that exactly- without necessarily being brilliant himself, the team around him was better with him being there. The next Chrissy Cohen with a smattering of Psycho? Club captain within 3 years I reckon...?

Yes, it works! ;) :cool:

[Strawberry Avenger]

SA, how do you include many replies into one post?

Now, regarding the best DCM pairing. I haven't seen enough yet to comment on that and it's still very early days. I would however have to go for Watson as I believe he's the best one to read the game and fill in where needed. AK does play with wing backs that have a clear responsibility to contribute in attack. For that to work you do need to have somebody to cover in defense if we lose the ball and the opposition is counter attacking. In these situations it really bugs me when supporters get on the back of Osborn (and Darikwa) for not understanding the FB role well enough when it's clearly the responsibility of the DCMs to cover (this is also the case when we play with a narrow defensive set up) - but let's not get into that here.

I agree with most of the comments regarding how our DCMs have played in pre-season. Watson has not played well, I think Bridcutt has played well as have Geddy and Yates. Colback I haven't seen yet but I fully expect him to be one of the preferred DCMs together with Watson. But it would have been great if AK played Yates instead. Yates can have a huge season if he's given the chance.

But still hoping for Vukcevic (even though I know it won't happen).

GaribadliRED,

It seems to do it automatically.  Eg.  If you reply to several people's comments at once, it stacks them up!  ie.  Try replying to a couple of different posters.  Eg.  Reply.  Post.  Reply to another comment.  Post.  It will stack both of the comments into one post.  (If there's a series of good posts or good comments I try to give each one a reply.  If someone else posts in the mean time...then, of course, that poster will 'break' in between the other replies you are doing.)  Which is easier than some of the other forums where it posts each one as a separate reply, I guess.

Interesting comments with how narrow Aitor plays with the team, more compact than under Warburton?  ...and...the fullbacks operate in a wingback counter attack way (being more expansive and progressive up and down the pitch with the DCMs supposedly covering and taking on greater defensive responsibilities than just the 'centre' of the pitch.  If so.  That's interesting.  Because you have the two DCMs...that would make sense for their being two...because Watson would cover Dar' and Colback would cover Os' when/if they lose the ball from attack.  (Are you saying it's almost a pseudo-3-5-2 idea, i.e. the benefits of that...but played as a 4-2-3-1?)  In that context, Dar' and Os' could do quite well because Dar' has pace, he has the physical attributes and he seems decent going forwards (seems to make things happen, he's had shots cleared off the line etc.) and Os' is decent going forwards.  He's under-rated.  I think he'll do well in a better team.  (A rising tide lifts all boats...)  

Aye.  The DCM role seems one of the most unsung and I can see how it is misunderstood as it relates to 'wing backs'.  It may sound negative if there is two.  But as you explain it, it gives the wingbacks (fullbacks playing in this way...) to attack more while keeping fullback positions covered and the central core of the team covered.  Sounds like a win-win if you have the quality players in DCM and Fullback to pull it off.  

(Hope my understanding of what you're saying is correct...?)

As for how the DCMs have played so far and who Karanka goes with.  He seems fairly fair.  If someone plays well.  He plays them.  If they have an off day, he doesn't hold it agains them.  But if they don't 'listen' then they can find themselves frozen out.  He seems to see the bigger picture.  Watson hasn't been at his best.  However, I fully expect Watson and Colback to resume battle duties against Bournemouth.  Watson has bags of experience.  Vocal.  A leader.  Never stops talking to players and ref' alike.  His game management is 1st rate in that regard.  He 'plays the game.'   However, let's say Watson's legs are a bit tired at 75 mins.  I would love to see Yates come on for Watson off the last 15 minutes.  He'd learn far more from a training field of Watson, Colback, Geddy (who he seems to work well with...) and Bricdutt then being with Rotherham?)  AND, we haven't tried Yates with Colback, yet.  We could try Bridcutt at ACM to shore up games, later on.

As for Vuk'.  I have a dark fantasy that Forest have set aside £15 million for a deep lying DCM/CM playmaker...  :angel:

SA.

[GaribaldiRED]

SA, how do you include many replies into one post?

Now, regarding the best DCM pairing. I haven't seen enough yet to comment on that and it's still very early days. I would however have to go for Watson as I believe he's the best one to read the game and fill in where needed. AK does play with wing backs that have a clear responsibility to contribute in attack. For that to work you do need to have somebody to cover in defense if we lose the ball and the opposition is counter attacking. In these situations it really bugs me when supporters get on the back of Osborn (and Darikwa) for not understanding the FB role well enough when it's clearly the responsibility of the DCMs to cover (this is also the case when we play with a narrow defensive set up) - but let's not get into that here.

I agree with most of the comments regarding how our DCMs have played in pre-season. Watson has not played well, I think Bridcutt has played well as have Geddy and Yates. Colback I haven't seen yet but I fully expect him to be one of the preferred DCMs together with Watson. But it would have been great if AK played Yates instead. Yates can have a huge season if he's given the chance.

But still hoping for Vukcevic (even though I know it won't happen).

GaribadliRED,

It seems to do it automatically.  Eg.  If you reply to several people's comments at once, it stacks them up!  ie.  Try replying to a couple of different posters.  Eg.  Reply.  Post.  Reply to another comment.  Post.  It will stack both of the comments into one post.  (If there's a series of good posts or good comments I try to give each one a reply.  If someone else posts in the mean time...then, of course, that poster will 'break' in between the other replies you are doing.)  Which is easier than some of the other forums where it posts each one as a separate reply, I guess.

Interesting comments with how narrow Aitor plays with the team, more compact than under Warburton?  ...and...the fullbacks operate in a wingback counter attack way (being more expansive and progressive up and down the pitch with the DCMs supposedly covering and taking on greater defensive responsibilities than just the 'centre' of the pitch.  If so.  That's interesting.  Because you have the two DCMs...that would make sense for their being two...because Watson would cover Dar' and Colback would cover Os' when/if they lose the ball from attack.  (Are you saying it's almost a pseudo-3-5-2 idea, i.e. the benefits of that...but played as a 4-2-3-1?)  In that context, Dar' and Os' could do quite well because Dar' has pace, he has the physical attributes and he seems decent going forwards (seems to make things happen, he's had shots cleared off the line etc.) and Os' is decent going forwards.  He's under-rated.  I think he'll do well in a better team.  (A rising tide lifts all boats...)  

Aye.  The DCM role seems one of the most unsung and I can see how it is misunderstood as it relates to 'wing backs'.  It may sound negative if there is two.  But as you explain it, it gives the wingbacks (fullbacks playing in this way...) to attack more while keeping fullback positions covered and the central core of the team covered.  Sounds like a win-win if you have the quality players in DCM and Fullback to pull it off.  

(Hope my understanding of what you're saying is correct...?)

As for how the DCMs have played so far and who Karanka goes with.  He seems fairly fair.  If someone plays well.  He plays them.  If they have an off day, he doesn't hold it agains them.  But if they don't 'listen' then they can find themselves frozen out.  He seems to see the bigger picture.  Watson hasn't been at his best.  However, I fully expect Watson and Colback to resume battle duties against Bournemouth.  Watson has bags of experience.  Vocal.  A leader.  Never stops talking to players and ref' alike.  His game management is 1st rate in that regard.  He 'plays the game.'   However, let's say Watson's legs are a bit tired at 75 mins.  I would love to see Yates come on for Watson off the last 15 minutes.  He'd learn far more from a training field of Watson, Colback, Geddy (who he seems to work well with...) and Bricdutt then being with Rotherham?)  AND, we haven't tried Yates with Colback, yet.  We could try Bridcutt at ACM to shore up games, later on.

As for Vuk'.  I have a dark fantasy that Forest have set aside £15 million for a deep lying DCM/CM playmaker...  :angel:

SA.

Thanks for the explanation SA!

I think you got my meaning. Discussing formation is always a bit difficult because it tends to shift during a match. I believe we are set up to play 4-2-3-1 when we are in "stable" defensive formation. If we manage to "steal" the ball while the opposition is in an attacking formation we have the opportunity to counter and in that instance we can suddenly go from 4-2-3-1 to 3-2-4-1 or even 2-2-5-1. If we lose the ball in this full attacking formation we will instantly try to win it back by crowding out the opposition player with the ball and block all (forward) passing alleys. In this vulnerable situation our DCMs will have to be quick in sniffing out the danger and block any attempt by the opposition to counter in the areas where there is now much open space. If we are not able to win the ball back within the first few seconds we will try to get back to our normal and stable defensive formation as soon as possible. My point being that we don't tend to attack in an 4-2-3-1 formation.

If both DCMs need to stay back while we are attacking or if one should be allowed to join the attack depends on how big of a risk you want to take. Here the opposition's formation and tactical plan combined with their skill level is of course very important. I will always favor a solid DCM that can act as an efficient deep lying playmaker as well. 

Hope that made sense  :)