A Consistent Philosophy

[Salvatore Matrecano]

Ive been trying to think of whats wrong, its been said before but Im more certain than ever simply on the basis of excluding nearly every other option.

MON has had a few games where we have played well, so we can do it.
Karanka had us playing very well at times against the top teams before it went wrong.

Therefore based on the above, it is NOT the squad, it is not that the players are not good enough. Yes we have a shed load of mediocrity but there are 18 players there good enough for a promotion challenge.

The issue is we are not sticking with one system, backing a manager and letting him get on with it. I believe MON can build a side that gets results and plays well if he is given time. Problem is on the available evidence he wont get it. Karanka would have done it too and possibly so would Warburton. All of them have made some pretty ropey aquisitions but so did Cloughie.

MON has had a mediocre strart, we are playing some awful stuff. So did Karanka last season, 7 games without scoring if I remember. Do you want Billy Davies back? He started badly too and if any of you witnessed some of his away performances they were beyond miserable. For comparison Farke finished 14th with Norwich last season.

Want a quick fix Mr Marinakis? Well you can hire Jorge Mendes and his best mate as manager and bust FFP by miles, that does seem to work. What you cant do is try to do that half arsed, buy some unproven talent and a few loans then blame your manager when it doesnt work straight away.

Let MON do his stuff even if it isnt too pretty right now, change what we doing and trying to rebuild on a budget will continue our cycle of failure. Sheffield Utd have put a club legend in charge too and let him get on with it. For my money our squad is better than theirs as it stands, People would have palpitations on here if we had David Mcgoldrick in our team, Seems he does have ability after all. I wouldnt be surprised  if Swansea are challenging at the top next year but only if Potter is allowed to do it.

The top 2 clubs in the Championship have managers who have been allowed to develop and shape their teams how they want to play. For me thats the best way to be successful.

[Duncan Mckenzie]

Very good post Salvatore and you make some great points.

Certainly plenty of food for thought.

[Paplane]

Top post sir. Sense at last.

[ozzyten10]

I actually think that being in with a shout of playoffs has been a bit detrimental in building that philosophy. MON isn’t beyond Cristism for this. He has tried to play direct, aggressive football without the personnel to do it. His record at home 5 wins from 7 is actually very good but that is tempered by poor performances. The away matches have been awful. They’ve forgotten how to win away. This has been a long term issue too. Yesterday’s subs were a joke and desperation kicked in leading to Rotherham easily closing the game out.
However, blooding Appiah and maybe Richardson and Brennan would be a good idea here on in. Murphy should be restricted to emergency only and 15 min cameos when chasing a game. He also needs to give carvalho a run of games now to see if he is worth perseverance or getting rid.
I do wonder if we will struggle with season ticket renewals after the last 2 weeks performances- I can’t see 20,000.

[Username]

The thing I am struggling with most is that there is no identity to what Martin is doing or trying to achieve.

I could fully understand if he were being pragmatic and putting results first but that clearly isn’t the case. The results speak for themselves.

If we were playing entertaining football then I would understand also but it’s largely been dire to watch.

Rotherham had more shots at goal than any other team in the Championship yesterday, what’s that about?

[Jasper Scarrott]

I fully understand the original post by Salvatore. I get it, I really do. It is a great post.

What is bothering me most though is something that Brian Laws said yesterday.

''Forest are not capable of doing the most basic things'' or words to that effect.

That is a very worrying statement by Lawsy in my opinion.

[Alf]

For me the squad is so overrated it's unreal.

AK had us outside the top 6 for 21 of 26 weeks. The week before he left we were 10th.

We've been a mid-table squad all season, and - Grabban aside - this pre-season was a laughable example of how to build a promotions side. 16m on a kid who blows hot & cold & is miles off being consistant enough to cement his place in a promotion side, and an injury prone over 30 who's game is all about physicality yet who never cut his teeth in one of the most physical leagues on the planet.

We've a handful of definite top 6 players (Grabban, Lolley, Colback), backed by a support cast of inconsistant players which show top 6 quality but can't produce it regularly enough to be relied upon (Carva, Cash etc.) and the other 20 odd players are mid-lower table make-do's. Don't get me started on the toss Greek loans who shouldn't be anywhere near the squad.

I agree that consistancy is our best bet in terms of manager, 100%. But we've a bunch of owners who sack for the skae of sacking. If you can't give the likes of AK the season whilst sat 7th, you like a sacking and no manager is gonna get time to build here.

The owners demand, so the fans should demand of the owners. If they want promotion and want it asap they should invest the extra 20-30mil required to make us a genuine top 6 side.

Whilstever they continue with their cycle of sackings they will get no leeway from me. They set the standards, they need to shape themselves up and play their part in having us meet them.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Ive been trying to think of whats wrong, its been said before but Im more certain than ever simply on the basis of excluding nearly every other option.

MON has had a few games where we have played well, so we can do it.
Karanka had us playing very well at times against the top teams before it went wrong.

Therefore based on the above, it is NOT the squad, it is not that the players are not good enough. Yes we have a shed load of mediocrity but there are 18 players there good enough for a promotion challenge.

The issue is we are not sticking with one system, backing a manager and letting him get on with it. I believe MON can build a side that gets results and plays well if he is given time. Problem is on the available evidence he wont get it. Karanka would have done it too and possibly so would Warburton. All of them have made some pretty ropey aquisitions but so did Cloughie.

MON has had a mediocre strart, we are playing some awful stuff. So did Karanka last season, 7 games without scoring if I remember. Do you want Billy Davies back? He started badly too and if any of you witnessed some of his away performances they were beyond miserable. For comparison Farke finished 14th with Norwich last season.

Want a quick fix Mr Marinakis? Well you can hire Jorge Mendes and his best mate as manager and bust FFP by miles, that does seem to work. What you cant do is try to do that half arsed, buy some unproven talent and a few loans then blame your manager when it doesnt work straight away.

Let MON do his stuff even if it isnt too pretty right now, change what we doing and trying to rebuild on a budget will continue our cycle of failure. Sheffield Utd have put a club legend in charge too and let him get on with it. For my money our squad is better than theirs as it stands, People would have palpitations on here if we had David Mcgoldrick in our team, Seems he does have ability after all. I wouldnt be surprised  if Swansea are challenging at the top next year but only if Potter is allowed to do it.

The top 2 clubs in the Championship have managers who have been allowed to develop and shape their teams how they want to play. For me thats the best way to be successful.

'Time.'  Brian Clough.

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

For me the squad is so overrated it's unreal.

AK had us outside the top 6 for 21 of 26 weeks. The week before he left we were 10th.

We've been a mid-table squad all season, and - Grabban aside - this pre-season was a laughable example of how to build a promotions side. 16m on a kid who blows hot & cold & is miles off being consistant enough to cement his place in a promotion side, and an injury prone over 30 who's game is all about physicality yet who never cut his teeth in one of the most physical leagues on the planet.

We've a handful of definite top 6 players (Grabban, Lolley, Colback), backed by a support cast of inconsistant players which show top 6 quality but can't produce it regularly enough to be relied upon (Carva, Cash etc.) and the other 20 odd players are mid-lower table make-do's. Don't get me started on the toss Greek loans who shouldn't be anywhere near the squad.

I agree that consistancy is our best bet in terms of manager, 100%. But we've a bunch of owners who sack for the skae of sacking. If you can't give the likes of AK the season whilst sat 7th, you like a sacking and no manager is gonna get time to build here.

The owners demand, so the fans should demand of the owners. If they want promotion and want it asap they should invest the extra 20-30mil required to make us a genuine top 6 side.

Whilstever they continue with their cycle of sackings they will get no leeway from me. They set the standards, they need to shape themselves up and play their part in having us meet them.

Ah.  The baseball bat of truth.

For me?  The best post since this forum started.

It should be framed and mounted at Marinakis HQ or any Forest fan's wall.

As Clough once said, 'The owners who sack the managers should be sacked themselves.'

He also said, 'Time...'  Brian Clough.

Norwich are an example of a club that 'stuck with' their guy as they went from mid-table to top of the table.

We've tried to go from relegation threatened (and we were last season, if we're honest, Forest were dropping like a stone and slowly beginning that death spiral....before Aitor applied the emergency breaks and 10 players to 'brute' force an arrest of form) to top two in one season.

No.  It's a three season job.  This second season is mid-table.  With the right investment and sticking(!) with the current managerial team?  Next year we will get top 6 - top 2.

A bridge too far.

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Wait a minute, do we have a thread on 'consistency...'

Hmm. I'll believe it when I see it at Forest HQ.

SA.

[Camms]

I often wonder to myself where we would be now if we had given Freedman time, where would we be if we had given Pearce time, where would we be if we had given Warburton time etc etc.

Would we really be in a better position then where we are now? I very much doubt it, although we will never know of course.

For me the problem is that we are constantly hiring the wrong type of manager over and over again.

Of course we need a consistent philosophy but to have that we need to choose the right manager in the first place.

We need a manager to stay in place for 3 or 4 years but we need a good manager and the right manager not just any old manager to stay in place just for the sake of it.

It is absolutely crucial that the owners get it right next time because they haven't gotten it right yet and neither did the previous owner.

[ThePromisedLand]

Top post Salvatore!