International Football - England - Euros - World Cup Etc

[Sausage Roll]

I wonder what the reaction would've been if - after going ahead - Tuchel had made like-for-like changes (e.g. Saka for Rogers, Rashford for Gordon) instead of going defensive and we'd still lost?

He's getting pelters in the media (rightfully) for going too defensive too early but I bet he'd still be getting pelters from the same people for NOT going defensive.

[wassy04]

I wonder what the reaction would've been if - after going ahead - Tuchel had made like-for-like changes (e.g. Saka for Rogers, Rashford for Gordon) instead of going defensive and we'd still lost?

He's getting pelters in the media (rightfully) for going too defensive too early but I bet he'd still be getting pelters from the same people for NOT going defensive.

Not sure I agree with that, I think the players would be getting the blame.

Ultimately 12% possession after Gordon scores is crazy and that was mainly due to the amount of defenders on the pitch and no out ball. Argentina are not a great side and we sat deep knowing they had Messi, played into their hands. 

Gordon for Konsa will go down as one of the worst subs of all time.

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

So disappointed with how that unfolded.

1-0 up and we had them right where we wanted them.

Then TT hands them the match on a plate.

Absolutely criminal from TT.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

I wonder what the reaction would've been if - after going ahead - Tuchel had made like-for-like changes (e.g. Saka for Rogers, Rashford for Gordon) instead of going defensive and we'd still lost?

He's getting pelters in the media (rightfully) for going too defensive too early but I bet he'd still be getting pelters from the same people for NOT going defensive.

Not sure I agree with that, I think the players would be getting the blame.

Ultimately 12% possession after Gordon scores is crazy and that was mainly due to the amount of defenders on the pitch and no out ball. Argentina are not a great side and we sat deep knowing they had Messi, played into their hands. 

Gordon for Konsa will go down as one of the worst subs of all time.

Yes and no to that. Tuchel was correct in saying he was trying to stop crosses coming in but in so doing totally lost control of the game and as has been said by plenty we were left with no outlet. Truth is the players he has available in defence are bang average (shout out to Spence who has come of age) but it’s likely we were always going to be unpicked by the first quality attacking team we faced and so it proved. Handing it to them on a plate in that manner makes it harder to take just saying a defeat may have been inevitable.

[Sausage Roll]

I'm glad someone has mentioned the quality of players because they seem to be getting a bit of a free ride. Kane and Bellingham carried England to that semi-final and - apart from the odd flash from the others - there weren't consistent contributions. Anderson and Gordon had moments and as you say Spence was magnificent last night but other than that, what?

You see pundits in the media wanging on about how great England's players are, but are they? I don't watch enough overseas football to know how England's squad depth compares to that of the other top nations but could it be that we're just not as good as we want to think? Look at who Spain brought on in their semi: Pedri, Williams. Merino, Torres. I don't think England has that quality through the rest of the squad.

[wassy04]

I wonder what the reaction would've been if - after going ahead - Tuchel had made like-for-like changes (e.g. Saka for Rogers, Rashford for Gordon) instead of going defensive and we'd still lost?

He's getting pelters in the media (rightfully) for going too defensive too early but I bet he'd still be getting pelters from the same people for NOT going defensive.

Not sure I agree with that, I think the players would be getting the blame.

Ultimately 12% possession after Gordon scores is crazy and that was mainly due to the amount of defenders on the pitch and no out ball. Argentina are not a great side and we sat deep knowing they had Messi, played into their hands. 

Gordon for Konsa will go down as one of the worst subs of all time.

Yes and no to that. Tuchel was correct in saying he was trying to stop crosses coming in but in so doing totally lost control of the game and as has been said by plenty we were left with no outlet. Truth is the players he has available in defence are bang average (shout out to Spence who has come of age) but it’s likely we were always going to be unpicked by the first quality attacking team we faced and so it proved. Handing it to them on a plate in that manner makes it harder to take just saying a defeat may have been inevitable.

Hard to say defeat is inevitable when you're 1-0 up in the 2nd half!

Also, if you know you're defence is shit and you're up against Messi and you know you have Bellingham and Kane, why not try and get a 2nd? 

I think for me the issue is that this version of Argentina just aren't that good. They were there for the taking, particularly once we got ahead.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

I'm glad someone has mentioned the quality of players because they seem to be getting a bit of a free ride. Kane and Bellingham carried England to that semi-final and - apart from the odd flash from the others - there weren't consistent contributions. Anderson and Gordon had moments and as you say Spence was magnificent last night but other than that, what?

You see pundits in the media wanging on about how great England's players are, but are they? I don't watch enough overseas football to know how England's squad depth compares to that of the other top nations but could it be that we're just not as good as we want to think? Look at who Spain brought on in their semi: Pedri, Williams. Merino, Torres. I don't think England has that quality through the rest of the squad.

Yes exactly this. We will go through the grief cycle first of anger against our German coach followed by introspection about the lack of quality of English football.
Then Sky will start trailing ads for the greatest league in the world with the smiling faces of the same players holding a Malvinas flag and we’ll all carry on as before.

[wassy04]

I'm glad someone has mentioned the quality of players because they seem to be getting a bit of a free ride. Kane and Bellingham carried England to that semi-final and - apart from the odd flash from the others - there weren't consistent contributions. Anderson and Gordon had moments and as you say Spence was magnificent last night but other than that, what?

You see pundits in the media wanging on about how great England's players are, but are they? I don't watch enough overseas football to know how England's squad depth compares to that of the other top nations but could it be that we're just not as good as we want to think? Look at who Spain brought on in their semi: Pedri, Williams. Merino, Torres. I don't think England has that quality through the rest of the squad.

Same could easily be said for Argentina too though. Are there really loads of people suggesting our players are that great? I would say most expected us to go out at this point pre tournament.

I think pre tournament we looked at the squad and thought we were very top heavy.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

It’s been a great distraction but at the end of the day I was far more gutted and angry about Forest performance vs Wolves back in January than I am about England now. Back to the real stuff!

[BomberBowyer]

I'm glad someone has mentioned the quality of players because they seem to be getting a bit of a free ride. Kane and Bellingham carried England to that semi-final and - apart from the odd flash from the others - there weren't consistent contributions. Anderson and Gordon had moments and as you say Spence was magnificent last night but other than that, what?

You see pundits in the media wanging on about how great England's players are, but are they? I don't watch enough overseas football to know how England's squad depth compares to that of the other top nations but could it be that we're just not as good as we want to think? Look at who Spain brought on in their semi: Pedri, Williams. Merino, Torres. I don't think England has that quality through the rest of the squad.

Same could easily be said for Argentina too though. Are there really loads of people suggesting our players are that great? I would say most expected us to go out at this point pre tournament.

I think pre tournament we looked at the squad and thought we were very top heavy.

Many good and fair points being made. What I would say is though who picked this squad? Who decided to leave players such as Hall, Shaw, Maguire and TAA out? Who brought in another CB when a FB was injured pre tournament? Who was it that felt taking James as one of your only FB options when he struggles to keep fit was a good idea? Who left inform players at home for players like Eze, Madueke and a half fit Saka? And yes, inevitably had he changed like for like last night and we lost then there would have been disappointment but at least we may have lost fighting rather than lying down the way we did. Yes maybe not world beaters but we had the tools to change like for like and what gets me most is that clearly Tuchel didn’t have confidence in certain players he put in his squad - Mainoo, Watkins, Chalobah for example played zero minutes.

[wassy04]

I'm glad someone has mentioned the quality of players because they seem to be getting a bit of a free ride. Kane and Bellingham carried England to that semi-final and - apart from the odd flash from the others - there weren't consistent contributions. Anderson and Gordon had moments and as you say Spence was magnificent last night but other than that, what?

You see pundits in the media wanging on about how great England's players are, but are they? I don't watch enough overseas football to know how England's squad depth compares to that of the other top nations but could it be that we're just not as good as we want to think? Look at who Spain brought on in their semi: Pedri, Williams. Merino, Torres. I don't think England has that quality through the rest of the squad.

Same could easily be said for Argentina too though. Are there really loads of people suggesting our players are that great? I would say most expected us to go out at this point pre tournament.

I think pre tournament we looked at the squad and thought we were very top heavy.

Many good and fair points being made. What I would say is though who picked this squad? Who decided to leave players such as Hall, Shaw, Maguire and TAA out? Who brought in another CB when a FB was injured pre tournament? Who was it that felt taking James as one of your only FB options when he struggles to keep fit was a good idea? Who left inform players at home for players like Eze, Madueke and a half fit Saka? And yes, inevitably had he changed like for like last night and we lost then there would have been disappointment but at least we may have lost fighting rather than lying down the way we did. Yes maybe not world beaters but we had the tools to change like for like and what gets me most is that clearly Tuchel didn’t have confidence in certain players he put in his squad - Mainoo, Watkins, Chalobah for example played zero minutes.

100%, that's what I meant by pre-tournament. Selecting a bunch of injured players (Saka, Livramento, James) and a bunch of backups (Stones, Madueke, Henderson, Spence). Then you add in the likes of Mainoo and Chalobah pointlessly being brought too. Thing is these were really obvious errors at the time, Madueke over Bowen just made so little sense. It felt like Tuchel thought he knew better than the club managers that weren't selecting these players. Madueke is the worst one though and so it proved and left us with no right side. 

I'm not really sure what Tuchel got right during the tournament? Bringing on Dan Burn when we were down to 10 men?

[Jimmygordon]

Tuchel. Get him gone. Good game vs Mexico and the second half against Croatia. Not sure the England players like him either.