NFFC Financial Talk

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

I'm thinking that all the commentary and news articles about everyone expecting a points reduction might actually be them trying to influence the decision in some way. The more people that say they 'expect' it, means any outburst by us seems more excessive if it were to happen, paint us as the bad guys, everyone can kick us while we're down etc and might make the 'independent panel' happier to be stricter because they are aware that everyone is saying a points deduction is coming.

Hopefully not, just a theory of mine.

Was thinking exactly the same the other day!

How can the 'Exclusive' i News article the other day, "Forest 'will suffer points deduction' over FFP breach', all based on the opinion of rival chief executives not be seen as trying to influence the result of the review?

Hopefully the panel aren't influenced by the articles and the foregone conclusion-ness of the recent discussion around us.

They will definitely get influenced if they bump into EM and his entourage beforehand.

[Marco Polo]

I’d love it if we finished 11 points above and got 10
Point deduction - love it

[DR Forest]

Good debate this gents, even if the subject matter is a little ‘dry’, it’s really important to our very future.

Can I add further comment to Wassy’s post which was-

“even if it is acceptable to include Brennan’s sale in our accounts that's not what decides P&S, its the separate calcs and allowances like infrastracture. Our accounts will show a much higher loss than we're included for P&S. These rules have already been determined, so whether we legally include it in our accounts or not, if it's not allowable in those rules they can just add it back in.”

It is indeed correct that our P&S numbers will differ from our annual accounts; however, this is mainly in relation to removing items of expenditure from the P&S calculation rather than removing football income or profit from the figures (the sale of a player to a third party club clearly differs from sponsorship income which can be manipulated and is one of the charges against Man City). If it is allowable under accounting rules then the PL can’t unilaterally decide to reject it. It forms part of the base figures and outside of subsequent interpretation for P&S, which is effectively an internal exercise within the league and it is this which the PL can influence.

This leads on to a possible second point that the PL have ‘moved the goalposts’ on what expenses they allow to be deducted as part of the P&S calculation. Forest have hinted at it, Everton have shouted it from the rooftops. Piecing together the sound bites, I’’d bet Forest (although close to the limit) were just inside it but for some subsequent PL adjustments. It would explain Randall’s earlier public confidence if the changes were made thereafter. I’d also be willing to guess some of these changes affect only us eg promotion bonuses. If that’s true, it’s not difficult to see how some may suggest that the charges against us are politically motivated and discriminatory (to offer up a sacrificial lamb whilst not affecting the status quo of the cartel clubs).

I’d love to hear if anyone has any knowledge of how true this might be? (Sniff?)

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

The only words I have had uttered to me are 'We are confident' like I told you the other day.

Other than that I know that EM will fight to the very death if he thinks he or the club have been wronged.

I honestly don't know what will happen and everything I hear and read I take it with a pinch of salt.

[Reds73]

Agree widdow, I've said previous punishment to fit the crime and a points deduction seems ridiculous and far to excessive.

What gets me is they are looking to change the rules because the existing ones are no good. Why go to the extreme sanctions if this is around the corner

The talk is that there are a number of high profile clubs likely this current accounting period  to fail the current rules as they stand today.

What a surprise they are going to be changed after ours and Everton cases have finalised

[Paplane]

I’d love it if we finished 11 points above and got 10
Point deduction - love it

Calm down Kevin Keegan.


"Points deduction who gives a f**k, Forest are staying up"

[DR Forest]

Agree widdow, I've said previous punishment to fit the crime and a points deduction seems ridiculous and far to excessive.

What gets me is they are looking to change the rules because the existing ones are no good. Why go to the extreme sanctions if this is around the corner

The talk is that there are a number of high profile clubs likely this current accounting period  to fail the current rules as they stand today.

What a surprise they are going to be changed after ours and Everton cases have finalised

Actually that’s not quite true- unless Masters was lying to the select committee it’s at least continuing next season also.
See at 6.20 in the clip.

Ps it’s also worth watching the woman in an Everton top behind him at 9.50 when I’m sure she coughs ‘bullshit’ after he talks about transparency

[wassy04]

Good debate this gents, even if the subject matter is a little ‘dry’, it’s really important to our very future.

Can I add further comment to Wassy’s post which was-

“even if it is acceptable to include Brennan’s sale in our accounts that's not what decides P&S, its the separate calcs and allowances like infrastracture. Our accounts will show a much higher loss than we're included for P&S. These rules have already been determined, so whether we legally include it in our accounts or not, if it's not allowable in those rules they can just add it back in.”

It is indeed correct that our P&S numbers will differ from our annual accounts; however, this is mainly in relation to removing items of expenditure from the P&S calculation rather than removing football income or profit from the figures (the sale of a player to a third party club clearly differs from sponsorship income which can be manipulated and is one of the charges against Man City). If it is allowable under accounting rules then the PL can’t unilaterally decide to reject it. It forms part of the base figures and outside of subsequent interpretation for P&S, which is effectively an internal exercise within the league and it is this which the PL can influence.

This leads on to a possible second point that the PL have ‘moved the goalposts’ on what expenses they allow to be deducted as part of the P&S calculation. Forest have hinted at it, Everton have shouted it from the rooftops. Piecing together the sound bites, I’’d bet Forest (although close to the limit) were just inside it but for some subsequent PL adjustments. It would explain Randall’s earlier public confidence if the changes were made thereafter. I’d also be willing to guess some of these changes affect only us eg promotion bonuses. If that’s true, it’s not difficult to see how some may suggest that the charges against us are politically motivated and discriminatory (to offer up a sacrificial lamb whilst not affecting the status quo of the cartel clubs).

I’d love to hear if anyone has any knowledge of how true this might be? (Sniff?)

I would imagine the move the goalposts things came in how strictly they were going to enforce it. Ironically we were a driving force of this change last year in our complaints about Everton. I think the independent regulator stuff forced them to be more strict in their interpretation of the rules too.

[wassy04]

Agree widdow, I've said previous punishment to fit the crime and a points deduction seems ridiculous and far to excessive.

What gets me is they are looking to change the rules because the existing ones are no good. Why go to the extreme sanctions if this is around the corner

The talk is that there are a number of high profile clubs likely this current accounting period  to fail the current rules as they stand today.

What a surprise they are going to be changed after ours and Everton cases have finalised

Actually that’s not quite true- unless Masters was lying to the select committee it’s at least continuing next season also.
See at 6.20 in the clip.

Ps it’s also worth watching the woman in an Everton top behind him at 9.50 when I’m sure she coughs ‘bullshit’ after he talks about transparency 

https://youtu.be/hkcpKTNRFso?si=HloUNBp1z9yJ2rRH

I heard the main issue was the rules don't include an adjustment inflation and were written 10 years ago so what was then considered an unrealistic amount has now become a factor for most teams due to excessive inflation the last few years. So they will need to adjust that as a minimum at some point.

[TrickySte]

The rules will only change if the clubs vote to change them. Even if they do vote to change the rules at the end of season AGM then this season (23/24) will be subject to the current rules.

Also the suggested rule changes (based on UEFA's current squad cost model) seem quite a bit more strict than the current limits, so if clubs are struggling to meet the '£105m/3 year loss' then they'll still be in bother going forward.

[Mcforest]

With Everton's 10 points deduction reduced to 6 points i think we can expect similar points deduction of ourselves.

[Sausage Roll]

But we could still appeal that if that's what the result ends up being.

Also that just relates to Everton's *first* charge. They still have to have the hearing for their second one.