Stevie Cooper

[Dog and Bear]

I am keeping off this thread because some twist my posts around to mean something that they don't really mean and it's damn annoying.

In fact I am not mentioning either Steve Cooper's name or EM's name again for the foreseeable future.

I'm out.

Sniff your posts are always full of quality content pal and the only reason why I come on here.

[wassy04]

Back to Cooper, for the remaining games until the transfer window, if Cooper was to leave now. What are the Cooper out brigade expecting a new manager to do differently? I will never understand this logic, there's no miracle cure or tactic that will suddenly improve the team. We don't have a starting calibre striker, that's usually a pretty big weakness. That Elanga is the best option despite clearly not being a striker is pretty damning.

So what are you expecting, a new manager suddenly throws in Montiel, Tavares, Sangare, Santos? A bunch of guys that have both underwhelmed when played (or in training presumably in Santos case) and just haven't played so aren't going to be overly fit. It really feels like people just want a change for change sake and assume that it will work out well. Despite the statistical evidence against it. Maybe ask Leeds, Leicester and Southampton fans whether they're happy they made changes last year.

I know you're desperate for him to stay. But my personal opinion is that Coops is overly reliant on a very specific type of striker. Taiwo is the Prem version of Davis for me. When we were in the champ, our team performances were way better when Davis played. However, we were able to win games when he was injured mainly because of the Spence, Brennen combo was so good compared to the opposition that we could still score goals through that route without Davis causing chaos. Garner also put some good free kicks into the box. 

Fast forward to now and without Taiwo we are toothless. I think it's because the way we play is completely reliant on him and I think it's Coops job to come up with alternatives that work. Unfortunately, Taiwo is prone to injury....and I also believe that the vast majority of players like him (there aren't that many), who are big lads, fast, mobile etc will typically suffer from regular injuries because of their weight and how they use their bodies. 

We desperately need to find a way to work with other strikers and that is on Coops. If he can't we need someone who can, in my mind it is as simple as that. Elanga (and last year Brennan) are Coops' idea of a best option as you suggest above - another manager may be able to bring out something better from other payers in the squad, I don't understand why you can't recognise that it is possible. It might not happen and the change might not improve us, of course that's possible, but for me it's at the point now where if we don't drastically change something then we are very likely to be relegated and the values of a load of players has drastically reduced, putting us in a precarious financial position. It's not like we're even making many chances for Wood, Origi, etc etc to fluff and they are experienced enough at playing at high levels to be putting themselves in the right places to get on the end of chances. The wingbacks did against Wolves, when he went back to a back 3, which is clearly our best way forward and he stuck with 4 at the back for about 10 games, which was criminal. Those games where we persisted with 4 at the back really irritated me, that's a quarter of the season and it was against 'lesser' opponents who we needed to get points from. Unfortunately, you don't have that amount of time to play around with a failing system. 

It is not a change for changes sake. He is underperforming in his job. I would prefer him to perform to a good enough level to not be questioned because he is rightly a Forest legend because of the past 2 seasons, but he isn't performing now and it is on him. He also needs to work out how to work with certain types of people. For someone with what appear to be excellent man management skills and a nice bloke, there is a huge amount of players not putting enough in and a large bomb squad. This is a major part of a managers role. It's easy to manage players and be everyone's mate when we're winning....

It's a fair point on the striker front and his inability to produce without a star striker. Although it's fair to caveat that with most team would struggle without their star striker.

To summarise I can 100% recognise that a change may improve the team, of course it happened with Cooper himself. However, the majority of people seem to have this assumption that change guarantees you an improvement which statistically isn't true and in fact the opposite. There's no reason why Cooper could not make the same drastic changes and there's plenty of evidence of teams that stick and this happens.

In my opinion, the balance of probability is that its more likely that we do better with Cooper than it is with a new manager, at best marginally worse. I don't think that is worth giving up everything we've got with Cooper.

[Shawoddyred]

Back to Cooper, for the remaining games until the transfer window, if Cooper was to leave now. What are the Cooper out brigade expecting a new manager to do differently? I will never understand this logic, there's no miracle cure or tactic that will suddenly improve the team. We don't have a starting calibre striker, that's usually a pretty big weakness. That Elanga is the best option despite clearly not being a striker is pretty damning.

So what are you expecting, a new manager suddenly throws in Montiel, Tavares, Sangare, Santos? A bunch of guys that have both underwhelmed when played (or in training presumably in Santos case) and just haven't played so aren't going to be overly fit. It really feels like people just want a change for change sake and assume that it will work out well. Despite the statistical evidence against it. Maybe ask Leeds, Leicester and Southampton fans whether they're happy they made changes last year.

I know you're desperate for him to stay. But my personal opinion is that Coops is overly reliant on a very specific type of striker. Taiwo is the Prem version of Davis for me. When we were in the champ, our team performances were way better when Davis played. However, we were able to win games when he was injured mainly because of the Spence, Brennen combo was so good compared to the opposition that we could still score goals through that route without Davis causing chaos. Garner also put some good free kicks into the box. 

Fast forward to now and without Taiwo we are toothless. I think it's because the way we play is completely reliant on him and I think it's Coops job to come up with alternatives that work. Unfortunately, Taiwo is prone to injury....and I also believe that the vast majority of players like him (there aren't that many), who are big lads, fast, mobile etc will typically suffer from regular injuries because of their weight and how they use their bodies. 

We desperately need to find a way to work with other strikers and that is on Coops. If he can't we need someone who can, in my mind it is as simple as that. Elanga (and last year Brennan) are Coops' idea of a best option as you suggest above - another manager may be able to bring out something better from other payers in the squad, I don't understand why you can't recognise that it is possible. It might not happen and the change might not improve us, of course that's possible, but for me it's at the point now where if we don't drastically change something then we are very likely to be relegated and the values of a load of players has drastically reduced, putting us in a precarious financial position. It's not like we're even making many chances for Wood, Origi, etc etc to fluff and they are experienced enough at playing at high levels to be putting themselves in the right places to get on the end of chances. The wingbacks did against Wolves, when he went back to a back 3, which is clearly our best way forward and he stuck with 4 at the back for about 10 games, which was criminal. Those games where we persisted with 4 at the back really irritated me, that's a quarter of the season and it was against 'lesser' opponents who we needed to get points from. Unfortunately, you don't have that amount of time to play around with a failing system. 

It is not a change for changes sake. He is underperforming in his job. I would prefer him to perform to a good enough level to not be questioned because he is rightly a Forest legend because of the past 2 seasons, but he isn't performing now and it is on him. He also needs to work out how to work with certain types of people. For someone with what appear to be excellent man management skills and a nice bloke, there is a huge amount of players not putting enough in and a large bomb squad. This is a major part of a managers role. It's easy to manage players and be everyone's mate when we're winning....

It's a fair point on the striker front and his inability to produce without a star striker. Although it's fair to caveat that with most team would struggle without their star striker.

To summarise I can 100% recognise that a change may improve the team, of course it happened with Cooper himself. However, the majority of people seem to have this assumption that change guarantees you an improvement which statistically isn't true and in fact the opposite. There's no reason why Cooper could not make the same drastic changes and there's plenty of evidence of teams that stick and this happens.

In my opinion, the balance of probability is that its more likely that we do better with Cooper than it is with a new manager, at best marginally worse. I don't think that is worth giving up everything we've got with Cooper.

Your last paragraph is completely relatable and that's the rub. Conversely, in my opinion, I am genuinely worried that we are now quite likely to get dragged into the bottom 3 at the end of the season if we stick and it's worth taking the risks you mention to give us a better chance of avoiding going back down to the Champ. 

If we do stick, I'm not sure it's that easy to find someone to replace Taiwo's game in January. Even more expensive, bigger names that don't play the way he does, would not work in our current team. 'Homecoming' for Antonio maybe?!?

[BarryLyons]

I am keeping off this thread because some twist my posts around to mean something that they don't really mean and it's damn annoying.

In fact I am not mentioning either Steve Cooper's name or EM's name again for the foreseeable future.

I'm out.

Sniff your posts are always full of quality content pal and the only reason why I come on here.

Me too Dog and Bear. 
Sniff. 
Just put the culprit on ignore. 
Or ban him.

[stefanduma]

Whatever happens, if he stays or goes, one thing is undeniable: at this rate, we will not have enough points to avoid relegation.

With the teams that came up and Everton's point deduction, that would be criminal and completely unacceptable.

I can not believe there are any Forest fans who would be happy keeping SC and being relegated back to the Championship.

Let's not have a supporters division like we had with the Poisonous Dwarf Billy Davies.

[Marinakis Red]

I am keeping off this thread because some twist my posts around to mean something that they don't really mean and it's damn annoying.

In fact I am not mentioning either Steve Cooper's name or EM's name again for the foreseeable future.

I'm out.

I am trying to stop various posters on both sides of the argument making stuff up and twisting facts to suit their own opinion.

If I have misunderstood anyone I apologise but I am now trying to remain objective and balanced.

If you are fed up I don’t blame you, I took a week off myself because I was bored of the circus.

That's why I only use facts rather than subjective opinion.

[wassy04]

Whatever happens, if he stays or goes, one thing is undeniable: at this rate, we will not have enough points to avoid relegation.

With the teams that came up and Everton's point deduction, that would be criminal and completely unacceptable.

I can not believe there are any Forest fans who would be happy keeping SC and being relegated back to the Championship.

Let's not have a supporters division like we had with the Poisonous Dwarf Billy Davies.

I'm not entirely convinced by this argument, Luton have only 9 points in 16 games for example. Surely at the current rate they have scored 0.56 points a game whereas we have scored 0.87 points per game. So on the those rates we would easily stay above them?

Luton have 1 win since September so do we. Seems like we're on a similar path but have a 5 point lead. It might be a depressingly low total but claiming we're on a path to relegation is projecting at least one of those teams having a fairly dramatic improvement.

[wassy04]

Back to Cooper, for the remaining games until the transfer window, if Cooper was to leave now. What are the Cooper out brigade expecting a new manager to do differently? I will never understand this logic, there's no miracle cure or tactic that will suddenly improve the team. We don't have a starting calibre striker, that's usually a pretty big weakness. That Elanga is the best option despite clearly not being a striker is pretty damning.

So what are you expecting, a new manager suddenly throws in Montiel, Tavares, Sangare, Santos? A bunch of guys that have both underwhelmed when played (or in training presumably in Santos case) and just haven't played so aren't going to be overly fit. It really feels like people just want a change for change sake and assume that it will work out well. Despite the statistical evidence against it. Maybe ask Leeds, Leicester and Southampton fans whether they're happy they made changes last year.

I know you're desperate for him to stay. But my personal opinion is that Coops is overly reliant on a very specific type of striker. Taiwo is the Prem version of Davis for me. When we were in the champ, our team performances were way better when Davis played. However, we were able to win games when he was injured mainly because of the Spence, Brennen combo was so good compared to the opposition that we could still score goals through that route without Davis causing chaos. Garner also put some good free kicks into the box. 

Fast forward to now and without Taiwo we are toothless. I think it's because the way we play is completely reliant on him and I think it's Coops job to come up with alternatives that work. Unfortunately, Taiwo is prone to injury....and I also believe that the vast majority of players like him (there aren't that many), who are big lads, fast, mobile etc will typically suffer from regular injuries because of their weight and how they use their bodies. 

We desperately need to find a way to work with other strikers and that is on Coops. If he can't we need someone who can, in my mind it is as simple as that. Elanga (and last year Brennan) are Coops' idea of a best option as you suggest above - another manager may be able to bring out something better from other payers in the squad, I don't understand why you can't recognise that it is possible. It might not happen and the change might not improve us, of course that's possible, but for me it's at the point now where if we don't drastically change something then we are very likely to be relegated and the values of a load of players has drastically reduced, putting us in a precarious financial position. It's not like we're even making many chances for Wood, Origi, etc etc to fluff and they are experienced enough at playing at high levels to be putting themselves in the right places to get on the end of chances. The wingbacks did against Wolves, when he went back to a back 3, which is clearly our best way forward and he stuck with 4 at the back for about 10 games, which was criminal. Those games where we persisted with 4 at the back really irritated me, that's a quarter of the season and it was against 'lesser' opponents who we needed to get points from. Unfortunately, you don't have that amount of time to play around with a failing system. 

It is not a change for changes sake. He is underperforming in his job. I would prefer him to perform to a good enough level to not be questioned because he is rightly a Forest legend because of the past 2 seasons, but he isn't performing now and it is on him. He also needs to work out how to work with certain types of people. For someone with what appear to be excellent man management skills and a nice bloke, there is a huge amount of players not putting enough in and a large bomb squad. This is a major part of a managers role. It's easy to manage players and be everyone's mate when we're winning....

It's a fair point on the striker front and his inability to produce without a star striker. Although it's fair to caveat that with most team would struggle without their star striker.

To summarise I can 100% recognise that a change may improve the team, of course it happened with Cooper himself. However, the majority of people seem to have this assumption that change guarantees you an improvement which statistically isn't true and in fact the opposite. There's no reason why Cooper could not make the same drastic changes and there's plenty of evidence of teams that stick and this happens.

In my opinion, the balance of probability is that its more likely that we do better with Cooper than it is with a new manager, at best marginally worse. I don't think that is worth giving up everything we've got with Cooper.

Your last paragraph is completely relatable and that's the rub. Conversely, in my opinion, I am genuinely worried that we are now quite likely to get dragged into the bottom 3 at the end of the season if we stick and it's worth taking the risks you mention to give us a better chance of avoiding going back down to the Champ. 

If we do stick, I'm not sure it's that easy to find someone to replace Taiwo's game in January. Even more expensive, bigger names that don't play the way he does, would not work in our current team. 'Homecoming' for Antonio maybe?!?

Antonio does seem to fit the bill pretty well, I think you'll struggle to name too many bottom half teams that can cope without a decent recognised striker though, Palace when they had Zaha maybe. 

Either way, it's certainly not clear cut either way which is why I'd been keen to stick. If it was certain a new manager would dramatically improve us then it would be more justified but there is just no statistical evidence to support that.

[stefanduma]

Whatever happens, if he stays or goes, one thing is undeniable: at this rate, we will not have enough points to avoid relegation.

With the teams that came up and Everton's point deduction, that would be criminal and completely unacceptable.

I can not believe there are any Forest fans who would be happy keeping SC and being relegated back to the Championship.

Let's not have a supporters division like we had with the Poisonous Dwarf Billy Davies.

I'm not entirely convinced by this argument, Luton have only 9 points in 16 games for example. Surely at the current rate they have scored 0.56 points a game whereas we have scored 0.87 points per game. So on the those rates we would easily stay above them?

Luton have 1 win since September so do we. Seems like we're on a similar path but have a 5 point lead. It might be a depressingly low total but claiming we're on a path to relegation is projecting at least one of those teams having a fairly dramatic improvement.

Well thats fine then no need to worry. I just hope that those three teams have read the script.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

I am keeping off this thread because some twist my posts around to mean something that they don't really mean and it's damn annoying.

In fact I am not mentioning either Steve Cooper's name or EM's name again for the foreseeable future.

I'm out.

I am trying to stop various posters on both sides of the argument making stuff up and twisting facts to suit their own opinion.

If I have misunderstood anyone I apologise but I am now trying to remain objective and balanced.

If you are fed up I don’t blame you, I took a week off myself because I was bored of the circus.

That's why I only use facts rather than subjective opinion.

You do indeed MR and it is appreciated.

You have called me out correctly on a few occasions too.

[ozzyten10]

What we can all agree on is after a promising start we have floundered and our home form has fallen through the floor. The new players are struggling and we are badly missing and light up front. Fulham could be this years Leicester though and it would be great to get a few more points on the board and maybe re adjust the squad a bit in Jan.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

What we can all agree on is after a promising start we have floundered and our home form has fallen through the floor. The new players are struggling and we are badly missing and light up front. Fulham could be this years Leicester though and it would be great to get a few more points on the board and maybe re adjust the squad a bit in Jan.

Agree on the first sentence. Not sure about Fulham being this year’s Leicester?! Did you mean Palace?