Nottingham Forest - QPR

[stirred]

I’m one of the bigger critics of Hughton and I see you edited my last post so is this reference to me?

To be fair, I don't notice who writes posts (PSS aside) so no not specifically aimed at you,  just a broadside at all of Hughtons harshest critics- also on other platforms-who seem to think there was an instant fix to the position we found ourselves in last October, on the back of 20 years of mainly dross, underachievement, broken promises, missed opportunities, lack of coherent strategy and scattergun approach to hiring and firing.

I have documented elsewhere my years of living on South Coast and freebies at The Amex, so I am pretty well placed to comment on CH, especially as I could see and hear know nowt Brighton fans as some turned on him in the Prem as they struggled to survive (but survive they did). The early pattern though seems to be similar here to his tenure at Brighton.

First steady the ship  to gradually pull away from relegation, accumulation of points by whatever means.

Second, build on the solid base with some decent attacking players and play, especially at home.

Third, challenge at the top end of the division  until promotion is achieved.

I'd say we are seeing signs of phase 2 already. Phase 3 remains to be seen, with the right kind of summer, I do expect us to be challenging.

Against both Brentford recently and again today, we have played some very decent stuff for this level. At Cardiff we battled our nuts off for a great 3 points.

I for one can see progress and a coherent on field plan and whilst I'd love to score 100 goals on the way to ripping up the league, the previous 21 years have made me somewhat more realistic.

If Hughton can't do it for us we are f@cked in my opinion, because Jose, Pep and Co are not f@cking interested in dropping into The Championship. He is the ideal and best safe pair of hands we were and are likely to get in our position.  

He is not immune to criticism, backing Figs earlier in the season was a big call, that ultimately saw him show some form and I'm still not sure what he sees in Freeman, but I never understood why Cloughie persevered with Brian Rice early on or Crosby after his first season either.  Progress is definitely there to see and the entertainment has been much better of late too.

Stick with Chris, back him and we will get to where we want to be in the next year or two or even three, but after 21 years, 2 or 3 years seems like nothing.

Good post and I fully agree. If Hughton can’t make something happen at this club it’s hard to see who else could. He was an excellent appointment considering our context.

There are clear signs of progress and improvement. The defence has now become consistently very tight, the players perform as a team, and we are beginning to look increasingly confident and competent when in possession. 

There are no guarantees, but the gradient seems to be pointing towards a genuine top six challenge next season.

I might draw an analogy to Mourinho. Is Mourinho an attacking, positive coach whose teams are good to watch? No. Can they be good to watch? Yes. Because a) he seeks to exploit the opposition's weaknesses and b) He will go for the opposition when he is much stronger. 

If someone exposes themselves his teams will pounce, and QPR did that yesterday. As we strengthen more in the summer and Hughton gets more confidence in us will we be more ambitious? Yes. But fundamentally he's a cautious manager, not someone who takes it to the opposition and makes the match good. And that's what I want. Just like I'd have been gutted as a Spurs fan to have Mourinho take over. (Part of the analogy being that football has evolved since both managers were in their prime, and they haven't evolved with it.)

I'm also firmly of the opinion that we have underperformed this season, so we could have both had more entertainment and good memories as well as more points. We were never going down. Hughton's greatest achievement this season has been to convince (some) fans that we were so bad that what we see now is his improvement, like a CEO who kitchen sinks his companies' valuation at the beginning of his tenure to then make it look like he has done a fantastic job. If you want to see someone who has genuinely done a good job, look at Barnsley.

I'm not asking for naivety in attacking. Pathological personality aside, I'd take a Klopp style over a Mourinho. A Farke over a Hughton. Too late now though, so I'll park those hopes for a while and enjoy our 'renaissance'.

Farke finished 15th with Norwich in his 1st season.  And would probably been fired at Forest.

There is only 1 Farke and Norwich have him.  Had the insight to have him.  Had the patience to stick with him in his 1st season AND when they got relegated from the Premier and after a slow start to this season.  He also took over a Norwich from a position of strength Forest have not had this season.  Forest were mentally shattered and physically ill prepared for this season.  And then get their manager fired after a brutal spank of 6 games, rooted rock bottom.  (So, no.  Not doing a Barnsley from that position.  1 random team per season, aka an outlier, is not evidence for that Forest 'could' have done.)

Forest have under performed this season.  Well.  Yeah.  Everybody knows that.  That's what happens when you have a bottler manager in charge of pre-season, recruitment and has had his head turned by another club(s).  Alot of the Hughton games have been very tight.  With points 'lost' in a land of maybes that could have seen Hughton's time in charge even more dramatic if not to an avalanche of injuries to CM.  But it's Hughton's January intervention that has finally started seen a real uptick in the attacking performance of this site plus some nuanced coaching built on building solidity and from it the confidence to finally put a QPR side to the sword.

Most of the top 6/7 have had continuity of government (part from Watford who love firing managers periodically...) which Forest did not.  Forest had a train wreck start and were never going to do a Barnsley.  Forest prepared to fail.  Can't pin that on Hughton.

Spurs.  Never going to win much under the previous manager.  Too brittle.  Mourinho.  If they stick with him, Spurs will get there.  As for their football.  Contrare.  They've played some good stuff under Mour' and some great goal scoring.

Hughton is an outstanding manager at this and lower to mid Premier League level.  He's just what Forest need.  It's going to be good enough attacking wise (see Preview of Intent from yesterday's game) and pathologically tight at the back.  That's how you get out this league and Hughton knows it.

Rather that than the loser romance of Warburton's tippy tappy QPR.

SA.

We can’t have Farke? Well no, I wasn’t suggesting we do. We hire. Coach in a similar vein.

You trash Lamouchi, and claim injuries for Hughton. It’s just biased nonsense.

Your last sentence sums it up. I’ve never asked for a loser romance. I’ve never asked for Warburtons style.  You’ve just gone off on one again, distorting what I’ve said to suit your argument/incohesive ramble.

I’ll heed Mark Twain, “Never argue with an idiot. You’ll never convince the idiot that you’re correct, and bystanders won’t be able to tell who’s who.”

[Strawberry Avenger]

To be fair, I don't notice who writes posts (PSS aside) so no not specifically aimed at you,  just a broadside at all of Hughtons harshest critics- also on other platforms-who seem to think there was an instant fix to the position we found ourselves in last October, on the back of 20 years of mainly dross, underachievement, broken promises, missed opportunities, lack of coherent strategy and scattergun approach to hiring and firing.

I have documented elsewhere my years of living on South Coast and freebies at The Amex, so I am pretty well placed to comment on CH, especially as I could see and hear know nowt Brighton fans as some turned on him in the Prem as they struggled to survive (but survive they did). The early pattern though seems to be similar here to his tenure at Brighton.

First steady the ship  to gradually pull away from relegation, accumulation of points by whatever means.

Second, build on the solid base with some decent attacking players and play, especially at home.

Third, challenge at the top end of the division  until promotion is achieved.

I'd say we are seeing signs of phase 2 already. Phase 3 remains to be seen, with the right kind of summer, I do expect us to be challenging.

Against both Brentford recently and again today, we have played some very decent stuff for this level. At Cardiff we battled our nuts off for a great 3 points.

I for one can see progress and a coherent on field plan and whilst I'd love to score 100 goals on the way to ripping up the league, the previous 21 years have made me somewhat more realistic.

If Hughton can't do it for us we are f@cked in my opinion, because Jose, Pep and Co are not f@cking interested in dropping into The Championship. He is the ideal and best safe pair of hands we were and are likely to get in our position.  

He is not immune to criticism, backing Figs earlier in the season was a big call, that ultimately saw him show some form and I'm still not sure what he sees in Freeman, but I never understood why Cloughie persevered with Brian Rice early on or Crosby after his first season either.  Progress is definitely there to see and the entertainment has been much better of late too.

Stick with Chris, back him and we will get to where we want to be in the next year or two or even three, but after 21 years, 2 or 3 years seems like nothing.

Good post and I fully agree. If Hughton can’t make something happen at this club it’s hard to see who else could. He was an excellent appointment considering our context.

There are clear signs of progress and improvement. The defence has now become consistently very tight, the players perform as a team, and we are beginning to look increasingly confident and competent when in possession. 

There are no guarantees, but the gradient seems to be pointing towards a genuine top six challenge next season.

I might draw an analogy to Mourinho. Is Mourinho an attacking, positive coach whose teams are good to watch? No. Can they be good to watch? Yes. Because a) he seeks to exploit the opposition's weaknesses and b) He will go for the opposition when he is much stronger. 

If someone exposes themselves his teams will pounce, and QPR did that yesterday. As we strengthen more in the summer and Hughton gets more confidence in us will we be more ambitious? Yes. But fundamentally he's a cautious manager, not someone who takes it to the opposition and makes the match good. And that's what I want. Just like I'd have been gutted as a Spurs fan to have Mourinho take over. (Part of the analogy being that football has evolved since both managers were in their prime, and they haven't evolved with it.)

I'm also firmly of the opinion that we have underperformed this season, so we could have both had more entertainment and good memories as well as more points. We were never going down. Hughton's greatest achievement this season has been to convince (some) fans that we were so bad that what we see now is his improvement, like a CEO who kitchen sinks his companies' valuation at the beginning of his tenure to then make it look like he has done a fantastic job. If you want to see someone who has genuinely done a good job, look at Barnsley.

I'm not asking for naivety in attacking. Pathological personality aside, I'd take a Klopp style over a Mourinho. A Farke over a Hughton. Too late now though, so I'll park those hopes for a while and enjoy our 'renaissance'.

Farke finished 15th with Norwich in his 1st season.  And would probably been fired at Forest.

There is only 1 Farke and Norwich have him.  Had the insight to have him.  Had the patience to stick with him in his 1st season AND when they got relegated from the Premier and after a slow start to this season.  He also took over a Norwich from a position of strength Forest have not had this season.  Forest were mentally shattered and physically ill prepared for this season.  And then get their manager fired after a brutal spank of 6 games, rooted rock bottom.  (So, no.  Not doing a Barnsley from that position.  1 random team per season, aka an outlier, is not evidence for that Forest 'could' have done.)

Forest have under performed this season.  Well.  Yeah.  Everybody knows that.  That's what happens when you have a bottler manager in charge of pre-season, recruitment and has had his head turned by another club(s).  Alot of the Hughton games have been very tight.  With points 'lost' in a land of maybes that could have seen Hughton's time in charge even more dramatic if not to an avalanche of injuries to CM.  But it's Hughton's January intervention that has finally started seen a real uptick in the attacking performance of this site plus some nuanced coaching built on building solidity and from it the confidence to finally put a QPR side to the sword.

Most of the top 6/7 have had continuity of government (part from Watford who love firing managers periodically...) which Forest did not.  Forest had a train wreck start and were never going to do a Barnsley.  Forest prepared to fail.  Can't pin that on Hughton.

Spurs.  Never going to win much under the previous manager.  Too brittle.  Mourinho.  If they stick with him, Spurs will get there.  As for their football.  Contrare.  They've played some good stuff under Mour' and some great goal scoring.

Hughton is an outstanding manager at this and lower to mid Premier League level.  He's just what Forest need.  It's going to be good enough attacking wise (see Preview of Intent from yesterday's game) and pathologically tight at the back.  That's how you get out this league and Hughton knows it.

Rather that than the loser romance of Warburton's tippy tappy QPR.

SA.

We can’t have Farke? Well no, I wasn’t suggesting we do. We hire. Coach in a similar vein.

You trash Lamouchi, and claim injuries for Hughton. It’s just biased nonsense.

Your last sentence sums it up. I’ve never asked for a loser romance. I’ve never asked for Warburtons style.  You’ve just gone off on one again, distorting what I’ve said to suit your argument/incohesive ramble.

I’ll heed Mark Twain, “Never argue with an idiot. You’ll never convince the idiot that you’re correct, and bystanders won’t be able to tell who’s who.”

Such as?  And will Forest fans have the patience of Norwich fans when the next incumbent reaches 15th in this 1st season?  And remove an outstanding manager in Hughton to do so?  And start all over again?

Lamouchi trashed Forest all by himself.

You're the one dishing out idiot insults.

Fortunately, Hughton's exciting Forest hammered the loser Warburton romance.  An argument proven in results.  Not some fantasy of 'maybe' that Forest haven't achieved in 20 years. (Forest sat 4th in the Champo under Davies. But some didn't like him either. And he played very pragmatic Championship football.)

I'm very happy with Hughton and his progress. I can see where this is going. And yesterday's result only confirmed many nay sayer's wrong. For what is an 'in progress' side and season. Not even a year in charge.

With Hughton, there is renewed hope. All achieved without a pre-season and modest January window and his principles of how to steady a ship that was 'trashed' by Lamouchi and rooted rock bottom. The preparation of the season, recruitment and results were all on him.

Mark Twain never managed Forest.  I doubt he'd have got 15th in this 1st season.

SA.

[zicorice]

And to think if lolley hadn’t lost a leg mighten may not have his chances of late!

Imagine a fully fit and back to form Lolley on one wing and Mighten on the other. Mouthwatering prospect.

With Carvalho in between?

Carvalho of season one maybe, but post Alfreton thug tackle in preseason he has never got back to where he was or looked like he could be. 

My gut feeling,based on meeting him a few times, is that he is just too 'nice'. He lacks a nasty streak required to bang down the managers door or to let defenders know he is about. The Alfreton thug could have brought that out of him, but instead it seemed to go the other way.

Shame as his talent was off the scale and his work rate was good., but we all know it takes more than that. Stepping on a pitch with fear in the back of your mind will limit you.

Lolley is a different kettle of fish and anyone could see that he was showing real signs of a return to form before the hamstring injury. Rehab, full preseason and a bit of confidence and we may well see Lolleys full talents shine again. 

As for the Hughton debate, albeit a bit of a one sided one. If we can play with yesterday's panache and intent in 50% of games and the steel shown at Cardiff in most of the rest then even you couldn't whine too much. No?

[wassy04]

My Easter chocolate has tasted particularly good this year!

Positives:
After the away template for promotion on Friday, today we saw the home template. 75 - 80 minutes of domination.
Arguably every player had a decent game.
Full backs both excellent.
Yates and Garner totally dominant.
Mightens star keeps on rising.
Grabbans goal and performance!! Wow. 3 or 4 more and he could be the man to lead the line next season,  let's hope he is back-1 and a half chances 1 goal.
All the people claiming Hughton can not deliver entertaining football have not been paying attention.
3 points.
Sheep lost.

Negatives:
Didn't get the deserved clean sheet.
Scouts will be circling Mighten, Worrall and Garner.
Is Christie playing for a big contract-somewhere?
Krovinivic, lovely in middle 3rd, nice shot, but in attacking 3rd, still not very incisive.

Great day at the office!

I’m one of the bigger critics of Hughton and I see you edited my last post so is this reference to me?

To be fair, I don't notice who writes posts (PSS aside) so no not specifically aimed at you,  just a broadside at all of Hughtons harshest critics- also on other platforms-who seem to think there was an instant fix to the position we found ourselves in last October, on the back of 20 years of mainly dross, underachievement, broken promises, missed opportunities, lack of coherent strategy and scattergun approach to hiring and firing.

I have documented elsewhere my years of living on South Coast and freebies at The Amex, so I am pretty well placed to comment on CH, especially as I could see and hear know nowt Brighton fans as some turned on him in the Prem as they struggled to survive (but survive they did). The early pattern though seems to be similar here to his tenure at Brighton.

First steady the ship  to gradually pull away from relegation, accumulation of points by whatever means.

Second, build on the solid base with some decent attacking players and play, especially at home.

Third, challenge at the top end of the division  until promotion is achieved.

I'd say we are seeing signs of phase 2 already. Phase 3 remains to be seen, with the right kind of summer, I do expect us to be challenging.

Against both Brentford recently and again today, we have played some very decent stuff for this level. At Cardiff we battled our nuts off for a great 3 points.

I for one can see progress and a coherent on field plan and whilst I'd love to score 100 goals on the way to ripping up the league, the previous 21 years have made me somewhat more realistic.

If Hughton can't do it for us we are f@cked in my opinion, because Jose, Pep and Co are not f@cking interested in dropping into The Championship. He is the ideal and best safe pair of hands we were and are likely to get in our position.  

He is not immune to criticism, backing Figs earlier in the season was a big call, that ultimately saw him show some form and I'm still not sure what he sees in Freeman, but I never understood why Cloughie persevered with Brian Rice early on or Crosby after his first season either.  Progress is definitely there to see and the entertainment has been much better of late too.

Stick with Chris, back him and we will get to where we want to be in the next year or two or even three, but after 21 years, 2 or 3 years seems like nothing.

Good post and I fully agree. If Hughton can’t make something happen at this club it’s hard to see who else could. He was an excellent appointment considering our context.

There are clear signs of progress and improvement. The defence has now become consistently very tight, the players perform as a team, and we are beginning to look increasingly confident and competent when in possession. 

There are no guarantees, but the gradient seems to be pointing towards a genuine top six challenge next season.

I might draw an analogy to Mourinho. Is Mourinho an attacking, positive coach whose teams are good to watch? No. Can they be good to watch? Yes. Because a) he seeks to exploit the opposition's weaknesses and b) He will go for the opposition when he is much stronger. 

If someone exposes themselves his teams will pounce, and QPR did that yesterday. As we strengthen more in the summer and Hughton gets more confidence in us will we be more ambitious? Yes. But fundamentally he's a cautious manager, not someone who takes it to the opposition and makes the match good. And that's what I want. Just like I'd have been gutted as a Spurs fan to have Mourinho take over. (Part of the analogy being that football has evolved since both managers were in their prime, and they haven't evolved with it.)

I'm also firmly of the opinion that we have underperformed this season, so we could have both had more entertainment and good memories as well as more points. We were never going down. Hughton's greatest achievement this season has been to convince (some) fans that we were so bad that what we see now is his improvement, like a CEO who kitchen sinks his companies' valuation at the beginning of his tenure to then make it look like he has done a fantastic job. If you want to see someone who has genuinely done a good job, look at Barnsley.

I'm not asking for naivety in attacking. Pathological personality aside, I'd take a Klopp style over a Mourinho. A Farke over a Hughton. Too late now though, so I'll park those hopes for a while and enjoy our 'renaissance'.

The main difference between Spurs appointing Mourinho and us appointing Hughton is that Spurs were overachieving for a long time under Poch. Whereas we have been consistently either average or below average. Spurs were changing their model and style whereas Hughton is largely a continuation of styles from previous managers. 

I would rather have a more attacking style of course, so would most, particularly as we've largely had the worst of both worlds in terms of style and results. However, where we differ is I think we were definitely in a relegation battle. Ridiculous to say otherwise, I mean if we'd lost both this weekend we'd be level with Cov and they'd have a game in hand. I think we've actually been a similar level to last year. Differences have been a combination of some worse luck with injuries and some worse luck with missing more chances. Based on xG etc we're about the same, last year we were lucky and won a lot of games by the odd goal, this year we've been unlucky and lost a lot of games in similar fashion. There were also jarringly bad performances in both seasons.

Our team was pretty average and then we lost Cash and Watson and sadly despite spending big only seemed to have signed one decent player in the summer (Christie) and even he looked rubbish for the first few months! Oh actually McKenna looks good if he can stay fit, so one good player. Then you take out Worrall, Grabban, Cash, Watson, Lolley and Silva due to injuries/being sold and the team doesn't look good. We did some excellent business in Jan to revamp the midfield and it appears to have paid off.

Still got issues with CH like his use of subs, use of Freeman, lack of game time (till recently) of Mighten, over reliance on Figs etc but overall work in progress. Will be hard work getting this squad up to the level required for challenging next season but if we get the striker signing right and Mighten/Johnson come on more we could be decent. Garner will be tough to replace though

[Sabricadabra]

Personally I prefer to see teams who are able to both defend and attack. I find solid team defending just as entertaining as creative flair in attack.

I dislike teams who only seem to be able to attack, and don’t seem to pay any attention to defending. Man City, Liverpool last season, Norwich this season look like they only attack because they have so much better players than the opposition which means they utterly dominate possession, but Klopp spent at least a season perfecting their off the ball game and counter attack. Pep has turned Man City into a resilient defensive unit this season in order to compete with, what he imagined would be, a strong Liverpool title challenge. Farke’s style often looked amateurish and naive in the Premier League last season.

It’s why I was glad to see the back of Warburton. When he was here it often seemed we were playing schoolboy football with scant attention payed to defending. I hated it, although it does seem he’s learned and developed his approach since.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

We are getting carried away about the attacking intent shown which is great but I think we need a reality check of who we played. It was QPR, a team managed by Warburton which doesnt press hard and makes mistakes at the back. 18 months ago we tonked them 0-4 under Lamouchi and again convinced ourselves that Sabri could be an attacking manager.
I like CH and think he will be bolder as he builds his team but he will always lean towards the cautious I feel.

[Fumanchew]

I dunno up until a few weeks ago when they had 3 games in hand I did wonder whether they could make an assault on the playoffs and it hasn’t panned out for them.

I think we need to remind ourselves that regardless of the manager that this season they defeated us first game of the season and have been above us ever since.

[Sabricadabra]

I’d take a good manager who gets results every single time over an ‘attacking manager’, or a ‘defensive manager’ for that matter. The irony is most fans won’t care about such cosmetics if we’re challenging for promotion next season.

[Paplane]

I’d take a good manager who gets results every single time over an ‘attacking manager’, or a ‘defensive manager’ for that matter. The irony is most fans won’t care about such cosmetics if we’re challenging for promotion next season.

Exactly. I just want wins. Also  people forget the game is about defending as well as attacking.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

I’d take a good manager who gets results every single time over an ‘attacking manager’, or a ‘defensive manager’ for that matter. The irony is most fans won’t care about such cosmetics if we’re challenging for promotion next season.

At the end of the day a season of 23 1-0 home wins and 23 0-0 away draws gives you 92 points and automatic promotion.

I guarantee everyone on here would bite your hand off for that right now.

[stirred]

I’d take a good manager who gets results every single time over an ‘attacking manager’, or a ‘defensive manager’ for that matter. The irony is most fans won’t care about such cosmetics if we’re challenging for promotion next season.

At the end of the day a season of 23 1-0 home wins and 23 0-0 away draws gives you 92 points and automatic promotion.

I guarantee everyone on here would bite your hand off for that right now.

PSS?

[PsychoStanleyStone]

I’d take a good manager who gets results every single time over an ‘attacking manager’, or a ‘defensive manager’ for that matter. The irony is most fans won’t care about such cosmetics if we’re challenging for promotion next season.

At the end of the day a season of 23 1-0 home wins and 23 0-0 away draws gives you 92 points and automatic promotion.

I guarantee everyone on here would bite your hand off for that right now.

PSS?

what now?  look, prior to Cardiff we were 2 points from 15 and even now ok i'm thinking we probably best sticking with CH but the CH Forest journey trajectory was in need of viagra.  i ain't saying it because i think the preparation for next season starts now, others will diss even the most impressive run in as being dead rubbers with no pressure, i don't care but to be honest i need to see goals, intent and excitement and more than a sprinkling of demolitions being handed out, and then there are all the contracts and signings to sort out, it starts now for me, even this season we looked like picking up, even making a push but it fell apart badly, anyway the forest website don't want to take any money, alot to sort out