(17-08-2021, 01:16 PM)Uwantlee Wrote:

(17-08-2021, 09:35 AM)wassy04 Wrote:

(17-08-2021, 09:23 AM)Mcforest Wrote: CH is a good manager on paper for sure and even though I wasn’t one of those who was for him I figured he was we needed at the time someone who was going to make us difficult to beat and with any luck keep us up. Which he did. This season I’m hoping he would move away from crises management and just allow the team a bit more freedom to go forward and make life difficult for other teams. Go to win a game or take control of a game. But again we are seeing the don’t lose it and if you do lose don’t lose by a big score. You would just hope to see a bit more urgency during the games, be pro-active especially when a goal behind to 10 men with 30 mins to go. 
Now I know he pretty much has the same players and maybe he doesn’t trust these players to do more than sit deep and compact. It may well be true that our players, even one we consider good, are just not championship standard and CH needs more than 5 or 6 signings this window to make us competitive. That said I would have expected to see some sort of improvement just through a year of coaching and playing that system with the players if this is how he want to about it. The problem is we are not seeing that, if anything we are looking more disjointed, more laboured and even less interested in moving the ball at different speeds during a game. It is CH’s job to figure out why and to fix it.
I’m not saying CH needs to be sacked for us to go forward. I still hope he can move us forward but right now he needs to have a bit of a re-think and decide if he is playing the system to suit him or to suit the players. To me on the outside it feels like he is not taking the lessons from the last games and developing the team. Feels more like this will work attitude and we stick with it and I will prove everyone wrong. I hope it does but I’m struggling with it CH.

He doesn't have the same players though. He doesn't have a LB, Worrall, Soh, Christie, Garner, Grabban (at least fully fit).

Surely we are looking disjointed because we are missing the above?

Christie and garner were never our players. We knew they were going back and therefore should have been prepared and had something in place to replace them... nope all of our eggs in the garner basket so what happens if he doesn’t come back.

Regarding LB we had 4 last season. Allowing 3 to leave without replacement is madness. Can only assume CH didn’t want them. If so he should still keep 2 until we have better.

He didn’t play soh last season so not sure why he would be missing him now. Figs got the nod every time.

Grabban is not as he used to be. Taylor is bang average but that was the case last season. We knew this. We knew we needed a striker but we don’t want to or can’t pay for one.

It’s a lot of excuses for thing we as fans and as a club have known for a long time. Rather than get things done we have left it late and are now struggling.

With the areas we are desperate in cm, st, lb we should be spending money to fill... add loans to the squad after this but these areas are priority.

(17-08-2021, 01:27 PM)wassy04 Wrote:

(17-08-2021, 01:16 PM)Uwantlee Wrote:

(17-08-2021, 09:35 AM)wassy04 Wrote:

(17-08-2021, 09:23 AM)Mcforest Wrote: CH is a good manager on paper for sure and even though I wasn’t one of those who was for him I figured he was we needed at the time someone who was going to make us difficult to beat and with any luck keep us up. Which he did. This season I’m hoping he would move away from crises management and just allow the team a bit more freedom to go forward and make life difficult for other teams. Go to win a game or take control of a game. But again we are seeing the don’t lose it and if you do lose don’t lose by a big score. You would just hope to see a bit more urgency during the games, be pro-active especially when a goal behind to 10 men with 30 mins to go. 
Now I know he pretty much has the same players and maybe he doesn’t trust these players to do more than sit deep and compact. It may well be true that our players, even one we consider good, are just not championship standard and CH needs more than 5 or 6 signings this window to make us competitive. That said I would have expected to see some sort of improvement just through a year of coaching and playing that system with the players if this is how he want to about it. The problem is we are not seeing that, if anything we are looking more disjointed, more laboured and even less interested in moving the ball at different speeds during a game. It is CH’s job to figure out why and to fix it.
I’m not saying CH needs to be sacked for us to go forward. I still hope he can move us forward but right now he needs to have a bit of a re-think and decide if he is playing the system to suit him or to suit the players. To me on the outside it feels like he is not taking the lessons from the last games and developing the team. Feels more like this will work attitude and we stick with it and I will prove everyone wrong. I hope it does but I’m struggling with it CH.

He doesn't have the same players though. He doesn't have a LB, Worrall, Soh, Christie, Garner, Grabban (at least fully fit).

Surely we are looking disjointed because we are missing the above?

Christie and garner were never our players. We knew they were going back and therefore should have been prepared and had something in place to replace them... nope all of our eggs in the garner basket so what happens if he doesn’t come back.

Regarding LB we had 4 last season. Allowing 3 to leave without replacement is madness. Can only assume CH didn’t want them. If so he should still keep 2 until we have better.

He didn’t play soh last season so not sure why he would be missing him now. Figs got the nod every time.

Grabban is not as he used to be. Taylor is bang average but that was the case last season. We knew this. We knew we needed a striker but we don’t want to or can’t pay for one.

It’s a lot of excuses for thing we as fans and as a club have known for a long time. Rather than get things done we have left it late and are now struggling.

With the areas we are desperate in cm, st, lb we should be spending money to fill... add loans to the squad after this but these areas are priority.

Yes but these things aren't the managers fault! I'm sure he'd rather have these players in by now. Anyway he played Soh over Figs in game 1

(18-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Mcforest Wrote: So according to CH, Cafu is a number 10 player. Now I like Cafu and think he has done a good job for us but as far as I see it the best performances have been when he is the second midfielder in the 4-2-3-1 formation. When he has played that further forward role he hasn’t done bad but he is not able to grip the game and we struggle to link the team together. Yet when he is deeper, he has good energy to cover the pitch and what’s more he plays on the front foot and we see passes hitting the front four faster creating more space and overloads.

Not for a second saying Cafu is our best player or he must be in the team. I'm using that statement from CH about Cafu it as an example to shows why i struggle with CH tactics and one of the reasons we are struggling to breakdown teams. Anyone who can move a ball quickly is not deemed a deep midfielder by CH and is quickly removed from the team. CH stand point is to be a DCM you must be able to defend first and formost. But having DCM's doesn't have to mean you will defend at all costs. When in posession the DCM is the one player who sees everything in a more forward position than the CB. So they have the defensive triangle behind them already. So they have the freedom to take the bigger risks with passing, bringing the ball forward or keep it simple. Being able to move the ball quickly and have a range of passing skill is exactly what you need from one of the DCM’s. Yet to CH that is not what you do in that position. That is why i struggle with CH tactics and game plan.

(18-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Mcforest Wrote: So according to CH, Cafu is a number 10 player. Now I like Cafu and think he has done a good job for us but as far as I see it the best performances have been when he is the second midfielder in the 4-2-3-1 formation. When he has played that further forward role he hasn’t done bad but he is not able to grip the game and we struggle to link the team together. Yet when he is deeper, he has good energy to cover the pitch and what’s more he plays on the front foot and we see passes hitting the front four faster creating more space and overloads.

Not for a second saying Cafu is our best player or he must be in the team. I'm using that statement from CH about Cafu it as an example to shows why i struggle with CH tactics and one of the reasons we are struggling to breakdown teams. Anyone who can move a ball quickly is not deemed a deep midfielder by CH and is quickly removed from the team. CH stand point is to be a DCM you must be able to defend first and formost. But having DCM's doesn't have to mean you will defend at all costs. When in posession the DCM is the one player who sees everything in a more forward position than the CB. So they have the defensive triangle behind them already. So they have the freedom to take the bigger risks with passing, bringing the ball forward or keep it simple. Being able to move the ball quickly and have a range of passing skill is exactly what you need from one of the DCM’s. Yet to CH that is not what you do in that position. That is why i struggle with CH tactics and game plan.

(18-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Mcforest Wrote: So according to CH, Cafu is a number 10 player. Now I like Cafu and think he has done a good job for us but as far as I see it the best performances have been when he is the second midfielder in the 4-2-3-1 formation. When he has played that further forward role he hasn’t done bad but he is not able to grip the game and we struggle to link the team together. Yet when he is deeper, he has good energy to cover the pitch and what’s more he plays on the front foot and we see passes hitting the front four faster creating more space and overloads.

Not for a second saying Cafu is our best player or he must be in the team. I'm using that statement from CH about Cafu it as an example to shows why i struggle with CH tactics and one of the reasons we are struggling to breakdown teams. Anyone who can move a ball quickly is not deemed a deep midfielder by CH and is quickly removed from the team. CH stand point is to be a DCM you must be able to defend first and formost. But having DCM's doesn't have to mean you will defend at all costs. When in posession the DCM is the one player who sees everything in a more forward position than the CB. So they have the defensive triangle behind them already. So they have the freedom to take the bigger risks with passing, bringing the ball forward or keep it simple. Being able to move the ball quickly and have a range of passing skill is exactly what you need from one of the DCM’s. Yet to CH that is not what you do in that position. That is why i struggle with CH tactics and game plan.

(18-08-2021, 01:23 PM)Mcforest Wrote: I get what you are saying but for me it's going to be small things like a change in just one of the DCM's role which will actually make us a more difficult team to face. We are slow with the passing and most time it's to feet and then it's first time back to where it came from because we haven't got time to turn or we the two DCM's are so far away from the attacking players we have actually created holes for the other team players to use for pressing or to turn with the ball. Which is fine sometimes but you can't do that for the full game you need to keep the team you’re facing on your toes and mix it up a bit get some movement between the front and the back, it is why you have a midfield. We say it should be the FB pushing up that give us the pass up the pitch. But again that only works if they have time and space to move into. We can't ask our CB to hold onto the ball while they move up the pitch then play a long ball in behind. We need to get it into the midfield and play the balls so those moving forward can be facing the other team’s goal. Also With two DCM we don't rotate the central midfield to make space and close space. Playing two defensive DCMs leaves us with a flat central triangle when attacking and 3 defensive triangles. Yet if we take just one DCM out of the DCM position they are currently in and together with the AMC we make them MCL and MCR for example we end up with a defensive triangle and sweeper that covers the back line and we open up a attacking Quadrilateral with 2 pivot points to move forward in. I do not doubt for one second CH hasn't though about this but i do question if one does he feel it is to of a maverick/dynamic selection for him to try right now. Two does he trust the players enough to do this and three does he actually feel the players are good enough to do this.
This is something we now spend a lot of time coaching with the younger age groups especially with those meeting up in regional teams and it seems to be working as it is not just applied in a midfield three but I use it here because it is something very small I feel we are missing and a small adjustment would allow us to control a game better, retain possession better and move the ball faster when the opportunity presents itself. As well keeping the defence well protected as CH wants. Also I think from what I’ve seen we do have the players to pull it off.

(18-08-2021, 12:44 PM)GaribaldiRED Wrote:

(18-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Mcforest Wrote: So according to CH, Cafu is a number 10 player. Now I like Cafu and think he has done a good job for us but as far as I see it the best performances have been when he is the second midfielder in the 4-2-3-1 formation. When he has played that further forward role he hasn’t done bad but he is not able to grip the game and we struggle to link the team together. Yet when he is deeper, he has good energy to cover the pitch and what’s more he plays on the front foot and we see passes hitting the front four faster creating more space and overloads.

Not for a second saying Cafu is our best player or he must be in the team. I'm using that statement from CH about Cafu it as an example to shows why i struggle with CH tactics and one of the reasons we are struggling to breakdown teams. Anyone who can move a ball quickly is not deemed a deep midfielder by CH and is quickly removed from the team. CH stand point is to be a DCM you must be able to defend first and formost. But having DCM's doesn't have to mean you will defend at all costs. When in posession the DCM is the one player who sees everything in a more forward position than the CB. So they have the defensive triangle behind them already. So they have the freedom to take the bigger risks with passing, bringing the ball forward or keep it simple. Being able to move the ball quickly and have a range of passing skill is exactly what you need from one of the DCM’s. Yet to CH that is not what you do in that position. That is why i struggle with CH tactics and game plan.

Why was CH so eager to get Garner then?

(18-08-2021, 01:39 PM)Mcforest Wrote:

(18-08-2021, 12:44 PM)GaribaldiRED Wrote:

(18-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Mcforest Wrote: So according to CH, Cafu is a number 10 player. Now I like Cafu and think he has done a good job for us but as far as I see it the best performances have been when he is the second midfielder in the 4-2-3-1 formation. When he has played that further forward role he hasn’t done bad but he is not able to grip the game and we struggle to link the team together. Yet when he is deeper, he has good energy to cover the pitch and what’s more he plays on the front foot and we see passes hitting the front four faster creating more space and overloads.

Not for a second saying Cafu is our best player or he must be in the team. I'm using that statement from CH about Cafu it as an example to shows why i struggle with CH tactics and one of the reasons we are struggling to breakdown teams. Anyone who can move a ball quickly is not deemed a deep midfielder by CH and is quickly removed from the team. CH stand point is to be a DCM you must be able to defend first and formost. But having DCM's doesn't have to mean you will defend at all costs. When in posession the DCM is the one player who sees everything in a more forward position than the CB. So they have the defensive triangle behind them already. So they have the freedom to take the bigger risks with passing, bringing the ball forward or keep it simple. Being able to move the ball quickly and have a range of passing skill is exactly what you need from one of the DCM’s. Yet to CH that is not what you do in that position. That is why i struggle with CH tactics and game plan.

Why was CH so eager to get Garner then?

Fair point the rumours suggested we want him and he does fit that role as the deepest DCM/MC (whatever you like to all it) but we don't have him with what two weeks left of the window and we are playing two deep DCM's now. Yet we could even now make that change with the players we have, but the statement he made to me sums up the mentality right now is still if you play the deeper role you must first and foremost be more a CB. Garner we were lucky with because he could do the passing part but i do feel the only reason we went for him was because of the defensive side of his game and CH would have been happy with just that.

(18-08-2021, 01:54 PM)GaribaldiRED Wrote:

(18-08-2021, 01:39 PM)Mcforest Wrote:

(18-08-2021, 12:44 PM)GaribaldiRED Wrote:

(18-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Mcforest Wrote: So according to CH, Cafu is a number 10 player. Now I like Cafu and think he has done a good job for us but as far as I see it the best performances have been when he is the second midfielder in the 4-2-3-1 formation. When he has played that further forward role he hasn’t done bad but he is not able to grip the game and we struggle to link the team together. Yet when he is deeper, he has good energy to cover the pitch and what’s more he plays on the front foot and we see passes hitting the front four faster creating more space and overloads.

Not for a second saying Cafu is our best player or he must be in the team. I'm using that statement from CH about Cafu it as an example to shows why i struggle with CH tactics and one of the reasons we are struggling to breakdown teams. Anyone who can move a ball quickly is not deemed a deep midfielder by CH and is quickly removed from the team. CH stand point is to be a DCM you must be able to defend first and formost. But having DCM's doesn't have to mean you will defend at all costs. When in posession the DCM is the one player who sees everything in a more forward position than the CB. So they have the defensive triangle behind them already. So they have the freedom to take the bigger risks with passing, bringing the ball forward or keep it simple. Being able to move the ball quickly and have a range of passing skill is exactly what you need from one of the DCM’s. Yet to CH that is not what you do in that position. That is why i struggle with CH tactics and game plan.

Why was CH so eager to get Garner then?

Fair point the rumours suggested we want him and he does fit that role as the deepest DCM/MC (whatever you like to all it) but we don't have him with what two weeks left of the window and we are playing two deep DCM's now. Yet we could even now make that change with the players we have, but the statement he made to me sums up the mentality right now is still if you play the deeper role you must first and foremost be more a CB. Garner we were lucky with because he could do the passing part but i do feel the only reason we went for him was because of the defensive side of his game and CH would have been happy with just that.

If CH was only after a defensive brute then he would definitely not have picked up Garner. Garner is okay defensively but in my mind not more than that. His biggest assets are probably vision and passing ability.

(18-08-2021, 02:02 PM)Mcforest Wrote: Right so who would fill those roles well it depends on what we wanted to do when we attack.




If the starting and end positions were planned to be as above then I would have yates as number 6 and if the other team attack he can either fill in as the CB while the other CB moves to cover whichever side they go down or be the first point of def for central areas. I am aware this takes away his breaking into box and etc. And i am worried his position sense isn't the greatest yet. That said for me this is where Yates should be focused on becoming as a player. Forget the headlines of goals this is the position i believe he was born to play.

The other two i would be looking at Cafu right now and be a toss up between Johnson and Carv. But i would so love to see what Johnson could do as the number 10. the drop deep striker getting the other players running beyond him so he could be that late striker into the box.