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+--- Thread: Week 1 Temperature Check (/showthread.php?tid=1001)
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - TheGreenMan - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 06:42 PM)Tricky Wrote:(10-08-2021, 06:39 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(10-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Alf Wrote:(10-08-2021, 09:59 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I’ve got all the patience time could ask for……With the right manager/head coach in charge.
I don't think I've ever known you to not want someone sacked mate :D
I’m just waiting for the right appointment :D :D :D
Karanka was the last manager I thought was potentially on to something…
I think even Pep Guardiola would find it hard to satisfy you TGM :D :D
:D :D Yeah he’d certainly have his work cut out….
To be fair I never wanted any of these managers appointed and they’ve done or did absolutely nothing to make me change my mind……I gave Sabri ago because I knew absolutely naff all about him, but I think we can all agree that for some reason he’d absolutely lost the plot come the end.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - Strawberry Avenger - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 06:39 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(10-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Alf Wrote:(10-08-2021, 09:59 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I’ve got all the patience time could ask for……With the right manager/head coach in charge.
I don't think I've ever known you to not want someone sacked mate :D
I’m just waiting for the right appointment :D :D :D
Karanka was the last manager I thought was potentially on to something…
I think he was. He's not the only manage to be sacked for being '7th.' He did a sound job at Boro'. Who were starting from a higher position than Forest were under him.
The team were playing for him. Pity he didn't get the chance to build in that January. But it's Forest. When was the last time they actually built on anything on back to back seasons?
At least he, unlike Hughton, got the chance to bring in his 'own' players. I fondly remember his 'Bloody Valentine' shake out follow that 'Preston' game. And the mad scramble for January signings that window.
SA.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - Strawberry Avenger - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 06:42 PM)Tricky Wrote:(10-08-2021, 06:39 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(10-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Alf Wrote:(10-08-2021, 09:59 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I’ve got all the patience time could ask for……With the right manager/head coach in charge.
I don't think I've ever known you to not want someone sacked mate :D
I’m just waiting for the right appointment :D :D :D
Karanka was the last manager I thought was potentially on to something…
I think even Pep Guardiola would find it hard to satisfy you TGM :D :D
An interesting point. ;)
But how do we think Guardiola would cope at Forest with just a Keeper and one solitary attacking player to start the next season at Man City with losing 15 players. And injuries to two CHs and no LB?
I bet he'd look moodier than he does when he wins.
SA.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - TheGreenMan - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 07:23 PM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote:(10-08-2021, 06:42 PM)Tricky Wrote:(10-08-2021, 06:39 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(10-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Alf Wrote:(10-08-2021, 09:59 AM)TheGreenMan Wrote: I’ve got all the patience time could ask for……With the right manager/head coach in charge.
I don't think I've ever known you to not want someone sacked mate :D
I’m just waiting for the right appointment :D :D :D
Karanka was the last manager I thought was potentially on to something…
I think even Pep Guardiola would find it hard to satisfy you TGM :D :D
An interesting point. ;)
But how do we think Guardiola would cope at Forest with just a Keeper and one solitary attacking player to start the next season at Man City with losing 15 players. And injuries to two CHs and no LB?
I bet he'd look moodier than he does when he wins.
SA.
Pep still wouldn’t sit back on a 1:0 lead inviting the opposition on to us and eventually surrendering…..He’d try and get a second & third.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - optimistic_red - 10-08-2021
TGM Perhaps you should stop watching Forest and support Man City instead. We are not going to win every game by several goals, those days are long gone. As are the days when we could sign the best players in the country.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - Strawberry Avenger - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 07:45 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(10-08-2021, 07:23 PM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote:(10-08-2021, 06:42 PM)Tricky Wrote:(10-08-2021, 06:39 PM)TheGreenMan Wrote:(10-08-2021, 10:22 AM)Alf Wrote: I don't think I've ever known you to not want someone sacked mate :D
I’m just waiting for the right appointment :D :D :D
Karanka was the last manager I thought was potentially on to something…
I think even Pep Guardiola would find it hard to satisfy you TGM :D :D
An interesting point. ;)
But how do we think Guardiola would cope at Forest with just a Keeper and one solitary attacking player to start the next season at Man City with losing 15 players. And injuries to two CHs and no LB?
I bet he'd look moodier than he does when he wins.
SA.
Pep still wouldn’t sit back on a 1:0 lead inviting the opposition on to us and eventually surrendering…..He’d try and get a second & third.
...and get spanked 2-3 nil in the Championship. With 15 players out. Only 2 in. 2 CHs injured. Main striker out. No LB.
He could try walking on water.
SA.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - TheGreenMan - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 08:06 PM)optimistic_red Wrote: TGM Perhaps you should stop watching Forest and support Man City instead. We are not going to win every game by several goals, those days are long gone. As are the days when we could sign the best players in the country.
Why would I want to do support Man City I’m from Nottingham not Manchester I couldn’t give a f**k about Man City!! If you think Hughton’s tactics are acceptable then fair enough.
But you do realise that you have to score more goals than the opposition to actually win games??
And who suggested we should be winning every game by several goals?? Certainly not me or anyone else on here I don’t think??
And who mentioned about signing the best players in the country?? I really don’t think anyone’s that deluded….
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - PsychoStanleyStone - 10-08-2021
(10-08-2021, 06:38 PM)Tricky Wrote:(10-08-2021, 06:06 PM)PsychoStanleyStone Wrote: big mistake taking on Hughton, talk about 'week 1' but this game was the culmination of many games, 40 'low goals no goals' games last season, same set up week in week out almost a duplicate of the same failed system under Sabri, playing this way week in week out is tedious, we are where we are after the same approach for the previous 2 seasons.
Yes we could possibly snatch players destined for Barnsley or Luton, back in the day players would of begged to play at the City Ground.
But now? Good players would think long and hard about coming to Forest, and our best players, well i think moral isn't good, at best not very good, this tedious self fulfilling prophecy with mr predictable is dragging us down, yet we have to ignore the recent seasons, the actually relevant results and indicators and hope the real Hughton shows up instead of the hologram we have
There you go, and we are only 1 week in, though in reality with Hughton's 40 games and Sabri's 2nd half season 20 games plus, we've had nearly 60 of these sorts of failed weeks already with this 1 dimensional, treat everyone like they are barcelona approach
Doesn't not having enough quality players currently in the squad enter into your equation PSS? Because at this present time, that is precisely the predicament we currently find ourselves in.
We have players out injured, one at least has been isolating. How many actually caught Covid? If there are any, it is not something you can shake off like an headache!
This post epitomises the exact points I made in my earlier post!
yes Tricky, we are actually weaker now than the start of last season, i agree, the road has got steeper, many weaker clubs seem stronger, but then we have to ask why? Many probably have a head start on us in dealing with being cash strapped, having smaller squads, maybe even having to depend on youth products as opposed to putting them in when they are ready
Whatever, i like innovations, mega tinkering may not help and the biggest flaw in my argument is that managers are damned if they do and damned if they don't, but for example Coventry were hapless in the first half, we kept getting the breaks, the luck of the bounce, and then we score a good goal but bar 1 or 2 games out of the last 60 i don't think we have ever finished a team off, we've never actually gone out to make daylight, always shrunk back and hanging on
The positive with players sitting on the bench is they are raring to go, straining at the bit, and young players are generally fit, but Hughton is never proactive with subs, he doesn't sense tiredness or weakness in the opposition and seize the moments, he had options, we were 1 goal up, he could of gambled and gone 4.1.4.1 or 3.2.4.1 just something to capitalise out of an opponent commited to having to keep running at us, whatever, proactive subs, subtle/temporary tweaks .. Hughton has never made 1 proactive tactical change to finish a game off
He is predictable, it makes it very easy for opposition to prepare for games against us, we all talk variants on here but besides the odd ultra defensive farce like that Barnsley game when we blew the play offs everything has been the same set up for more than 60 games, now Coventry will have confidence in there system, there manager, there whole philosophy strengthened, it's only 1 game, 1 loss on paper but have we got the togetherness or seem to emit positivity? i don't think so, it's been in decline for 60 games or more
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - Alf - 11-08-2021
Green Man, regards Karanka I think that serves of a good example of where you might need to adjust your expectations mate. I'm pretty confident that he could have got us up.......given the time and financial backing. And he was gonna get neither here.
That's where the club goes wrong, because it usually employs managers who methods aren't a good fit for the club. These aren't bad managers, it's usually down to the club not having due diligence to actually discuss the managers methods & vision at any real length with them before employing them. Tbh I think they do what most fans do and look at a CV, look at a win %, then after a quick interview set them on.
IMO the best manager for us is one who can cope with shitty situations, and then when luck does eventually go our way with the right cheap signings & a wave of top academy players coming through at the same time, then we can give it a proper blast. So far, I think Hughton fits that bracket.
The lack of success at the club simply can't be down to the managers we've employed. The EM era has seen us employ 3 out of 4 managers all with promotions to their name, yet we've not even made the playoffs. Never mind the numerous managers which were employed in previous eras who have all taken other clubs up. It's been the club that is the issue, and until it sorts itself out then all cycling managers does is run up a bigger bill.
Everyone needs to start seeing the manager as a place-holder until the club itself gets it's act together, especially in the transfer market.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - wassy04 - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 08:42 AM)Alf Wrote: Green Man, regards Karanka I think that serves of a good example of where you might need to adjust your expectations mate. I'm pretty confident that he could have got us up.......given the time and financial backing. And he was gonna get neither here.
That's where the club goes wrong, because it usually employs managers who methods aren't a good fit for the club. These aren't bad managers, it's usually down to the club not having due diligence to actually discuss the managers methods & vision at any real length with them before employing them. Tbh I think they do what most fans do and look at a CV, look at a win %, then after a quick interview set them on.
IMO the best manager for us is one who can cope with shitty situations, and then when luck does eventually go our way with the right cheap signings & a wave of top academy players coming through at the same time, then we can give it a proper blast. So far, I think Hughton fits that bracket.
The lack of success at the club simply can't be down to the managers we've employed. The EM era has seen us employ 3 out of 4 managers all with promotions to their name, yet we've not even made the playoffs. Never mind the numerous managers which were employed in previous eras who have all taken other clubs up. It's been the club that is the issue, and until it sorts itself out then all cycling managers does is run up a bigger bill.
Everyone needs to start seeing the manager as a place-holder until the club itself gets it's act together, especially in the transfer market.
We did have a pretty bad track record of appointments too though before Marinakis. You look back at some of the names, a lot have not carried on in management which says a lot.
Megson- not managed since
Calderwood - no longer a manager
McClaren- failed many times as a manager
Cotterill - was doing alright recently before his illness tbf, but previous journeyman record
SoD - no longer a manager
Mcleish - never seen again
Billy (part 2) - great the first time but that second spell was odd, not managed since.
Pearce - not managed since
Freedman - not managed since
Montanier - still in employment but bouncing round the French league
Warburton - still in employment! Fair play to him, he's come through a difficult spell at QPR and now is well set.
Karanka - sacked again although I was sad when he left us
MoN - not managed since
Sabri - sacked once since
Forest really is a graveyard for managerial careers. I think the above shows we have made some pretty bad choices over the last 15 years or so. Some of those were bad appointments, some not given time, some both.
I think it does make it difficult to back managers when the recruitment of them has been so poor so I do sympathise with this viewpoint. Plus CH doesn't exactly endear himself with his style of football, although it is probably the most likely style to succeed without parachute payments. Hopefully he does not join the above graveyard
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - Alf - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 08:57 AM)wassy04 Wrote:(11-08-2021, 08:42 AM)Alf Wrote: Green Man, regards Karanka I think that serves of a good example of where you might need to adjust your expectations mate. I'm pretty confident that he could have got us up.......given the time and financial backing. And he was gonna get neither here.
That's where the club goes wrong, because it usually employs managers who methods aren't a good fit for the club. These aren't bad managers, it's usually down to the club not having due diligence to actually discuss the managers methods & vision at any real length with them before employing them. Tbh I think they do what most fans do and look at a CV, look at a win %, then after a quick interview set them on.
IMO the best manager for us is one who can cope with shitty situations, and then when luck does eventually go our way with the right cheap signings & a wave of top academy players coming through at the same time, then we can give it a proper blast. So far, I think Hughton fits that bracket.
The lack of success at the club simply can't be down to the managers we've employed. The EM era has seen us employ 3 out of 4 managers all with promotions to their name, yet we've not even made the playoffs. Never mind the numerous managers which were employed in previous eras who have all taken other clubs up. It's been the club that is the issue, and until it sorts itself out then all cycling managers does is run up a bigger bill.
Everyone needs to start seeing the manager as a place-holder until the club itself gets it's act together, especially in the transfer market.
We did have a pretty bad track record of appointments too though before Marinakis. You look back at some of the names, a lot have not carried on in management which says a lot.
Megson- not managed since
Calderwood - no longer a manager
McClaren- failed many times as a manager
Cotterill - was doing alright recently before his illness tbf, but previous journeyman record
SoD - no longer a manager
Mcleish - never seen again
Billy (part 2) - great the first time but that second spell was odd, not managed since.
Pearce - not managed since
Freedman - not managed since
Montanier - still in employment but bouncing round the French league
Warburton - still in employment! Fair play to him, he's come through a difficult spell at QPR and now is well set.
Karanka - sacked again although I was sad when he left us
MoN - not managed since
Sabri - sacked once since
Forest really is a graveyard for managerial careers. I think the above shows we have made some pretty bad choices over the last 15 years or so. Some of those were bad appointments, some not given time, some both.
I think it does make it difficult to back managers when the recruitment of them has been so poor so I do sympathise with this viewpoint. Plus CH doesn't exactly endear himself with his style of football, although it is probably the most likely style to succeed without parachute payments. Hopefully he does not join the above graveyard
That to me just highlights how much we destroy managers careers, rather than them being bad managers. Largely because we don't back them properly.
Megson - Promotion winner
McClaren - Made the playoffs
Cotterill - wank
SOD - Not really a manager as much of a coach anyway and sacked 1pts off the playoffs. Would probably be a good fit for this setup actually.
Mcliesh - Promotion winner
Billy - Promotion winner, never finished outside the top 6 in a full season.
Pearce - Hard to judge as no record in the Champ other than here
Freedman - Umbongo'd. I didn't rate him, but I don't think you can be conclusive about judging a manager who didn't get 1p to spend in transfers (which incidentally is the case with Hughton at the mo too.)
Monty - No champ record, done well abroad though. Bad fit, not a bad manager.
Warbs - Playoffs with Brentford (not too far off lats year ether with a vastly overperforming QPR side)
AK - Promotion winner
MON - Promotion winner
Lamouchi - Unknown apart from with us
Hughton - Promotion winner, never finished outside the top 4 in a full season.
So out of the 15 you list 6 have won promotion, 2 have made the playoffs, and 2 had the playoffs in their grasp had the top brass not shafted them.
8 out 15 managers who have done the business elsewhere, 10 out of 15 if Lamouchi & SOD had been backed.
The majority of those are good managers IMO. Yes there is some crap in there, but we've had managers here who it could have worked with. The problem has always been the club and how it's run IMO. CH has been at the club almost a year and hasn't spent 1 bean on transfers yet. Anyone expecting that to get promotion after picking us up in 22nd and losing 12 players really needs to adjust their expectations.
RE: Week 1 Temperature Check - Salvatore Matrecano - 11-08-2021
I agree Alf and particularly with the last sentence. The last word actually, expectations not just from us but from the club.
It is the expectation of promotion the same year that is always doing it and the driving force of everything we do. It is the knowledge that every manager has that he will be sacked if he is not in the top 6 (top 2 in Karanka’s case) so they have to go all in. There is no time to build a squad or develop players, why would they bother when they know they probably wont be here next season.
So what does every manager do? They bring in players they have worked with before regardless of their age, cost of contract or suitability. Again what does it matter to them but we are then stuck with the fall out and the inevitable expensive bomb squad. The one honourable exception was probably Dougie who knew he had to work on a shoestring so actually tried to develop what he had.
Breaking this cycle is so important and I hope lessons have been learned and we will do so this season.