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RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Paplane - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 04:04 PM)wassy04 Wrote: These accounts once again show the impossible situation owners of championship clubs are in. Dp you make a hefty loss each year or run the club closer to sustainability but then are unable to compete on wages. Wages spent being the main thing that drives success in general (sadly we're an outlier)
Just shows until someone fixes the ridiculous parachute payments system the championship will continue to be a mess and rely on crazy owners willing to bankroll 20+m losses each year!
Luckily for us so far our owner seems happy to do this but who knows how much he's willing to put up with. I hope once again it's clear how much they are forced to put in and whilst they maybe haven't spent that well over the time here, the commitment and willingness cannot be criticised
Doughty at Forest, Mad Mell at the sheep, both really wealthy guys who eventually had their fill and could no longer sustain or justify the losses even though they owned their boyhood clubs. Both had, what, 5 years before they realised the bar is too high for large non-parachute 'big' clubs? As much as I admire the bloke, EM has no natural affiliation to us, he's not even British so wont have been brought up admiring the classic Forest teams of the 80's and 90's. So is it realistic for him to continue to pump in £20/30m quid a year in perpetuity? Not really.
What I do think is special about EM is that I think he sees the success, or lack thereof, of the club as a reflection on himself. That's why he's continued to hire & fire both here and in Greece over the years. When he fires a manager he's taking responsibilty for it and correcting a mistake. He's not like Fawaz where on the pitch failures were considered to be the fault of the manager and no one else.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - PsychoStanleyStone - 11-03-2021
i think the academy dependency has to increase, the wages are so much less
maybe give out longer more stable contracts with far more depth of training, education and grounding for the life of a pro football player, obviously fitness, ability are vital but look at ways to guage desire, commitment and passion
survivability and a modest profit are the key
the players coming in need to be flagship signings, 2 or 3, if things are bad come January loans could be more cost effective if required
a huge effort, £50 million into the club and a £25 million loss surely need to change the paradigm based on some of the above
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Knocker West - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 04:04 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Dp you make a hefty loss each year or run the club closer to sustainability but then are unable to compete on wages.
The perfect owner does both, runs the club sustainably, but also turns enough profit to cover the wages, it has been done before, so it's not the impossible dream.
We can, & hopefully eventually will, turn over a considerable higher amount than we currently do, which, if & when we achieve that, will close the loss gap substantially.
Hopefully, & it's the hope that kills you, we'll be in the EPL before to long, which will obviously help finances, but even if we don't go up I'm sure we'll see further efforts to increase the clubs revenue streams, because their is massive room for growth in that area.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Paplane - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 04:29 PM)Knocker West Wrote:(11-03-2021, 04:04 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Dp you make a hefty loss each year or run the club closer to sustainability but then are unable to compete on wages.
The perfect owner does both, runs the club sustainably, but also turns enough profit to cover the wages, it has been done before, so it's not the impossible dream.
We can, & hopefully eventually will, turn over a considerable higher amount than we currently do, which, if & when we achieve that, will close the loss gap substantially.
Hopefully, & it's the hope that kills you, we'll be in the EPL before to long, which will obviously help finances, but even if we don't go up I'm sure we'll see further efforts to increase the clubs revenue streams, because their is massive room for growth in that area.
A sustainable model gets a club like Forest relegated. When the money taps are turned off things go south on the pitch.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Knocker West - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 04:46 PM)Paplane Wrote:(11-03-2021, 04:29 PM)Knocker West Wrote:(11-03-2021, 04:04 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Dp you make a hefty loss each year or run the club closer to sustainability but then are unable to compete on wages.
The perfect owner does both, runs the club sustainably, but also turns enough profit to cover the wages, it has been done before, so it's not the impossible dream.
We can, & hopefully eventually will, turn over a considerable higher amount than we currently do, which, if & when we achieve that, will close the loss gap substantially.
Hopefully, & it's the hope that kills you, we'll be in the EPL before to long, which will obviously help finances, but even if we don't go up I'm sure we'll see further efforts to increase the clubs revenue streams, because their is massive room for growth in that area.
A sustainable model gets a club like Forest relegated. When the money taps are turned off things go south on the pitch.
Not if done properly, but it's so rare to see it done properly people have come to assume it can't be done, however the fact is it can be done, it's possible to sit in the EFL & make a 10 billion a year profit, if you do it right.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Paplane - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 04:54 PM)Knocker West Wrote:(11-03-2021, 04:46 PM)Paplane Wrote:(11-03-2021, 04:29 PM)Knocker West Wrote:(11-03-2021, 04:04 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Dp you make a hefty loss each year or run the club closer to sustainability but then are unable to compete on wages.
The perfect owner does both, runs the club sustainably, but also turns enough profit to cover the wages, it has been done before, so it's not the impossible dream.
We can, & hopefully eventually will, turn over a considerable higher amount than we currently do, which, if & when we achieve that, will close the loss gap substantially.
Hopefully, & it's the hope that kills you, we'll be in the EPL before to long, which will obviously help finances, but even if we don't go up I'm sure we'll see further efforts to increase the clubs revenue streams, because their is massive room for growth in that area.
A sustainable model gets a club like Forest relegated. When the money taps are turned off things go south on the pitch.
Not if done properly, but it's so rare to see it done properly people have come to assume it can't be done, however the fact is it can be done, it's possible to sit in the EFL & make a 10 billion a year profit, if you do it right.
I don't think it is. We'll have to disagree. Similar clubs to us - Sheff Wed, Sheep, Birmingham, etc cant run sustainable models.
In recent years I can only think of Sheff Utd who have got out of the division based on sporting merit and not without spending absolute fortunes. Sustainability in the championship is pie in the sky.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Knocker West - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 05:06 PM)Paplane Wrote: I don't think it is.
It quite patently is, as I can prove with a hypothetical, included in our financial figures is all income, including from the club shop, where we sell tshirts & key-rings, among other things, oh, & phone cases, I have a nice Forest phone case, that fits my Samsung Phone.
What's that got to do with anything?
Assume NFFC owned Samsung, & I know we're not about to buy Samsung, but this is a hypothetical to make a point, so let's assume we did, & all sales went through our accounts, we'd have made 16 trillion dollars in the last quarter & would have a huge profit on our books.
Now, as I say, I'm not expecting us to buy Samsung, I'm just using that as a hypothetical that uses a brand we are all familiar with, but as you see I've just got our accounts at a huge profit, over the 10 billion a year figure I used, & within the rules of the game & FFP.
Now, again, I'm not suggesting we buy Samsung, but there is no reason why we can't diversify in other areas & increase our revenue streams accordingly.
There is actually no limit on how much a club can diversify, how much a club can earn or how big their profits can be.
It's just a case of daring to dream big & having the ability to deliver on the dream.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - selborne garibaldi - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 05:14 PM)Knocker West Wrote:(11-03-2021, 05:06 PM)Paplane Wrote: I don't think it is.
It quite patently is, as I can prove with a hypothetical, included in our financial figures is all income, including from the club shop, where we sell tshirts & key-rings, among other things, oh, & phone cases, I have a nice Forest phone case, that fits my Samsung Phone.
What's that got to do with anything?
Assume NFFC owned Samsung, & I know we're not about to buy Samsung, but this is a hypothetical to make a point, so let's assume we did, & all sales went through our accounts, we'd have made 16 trillion dollars in the last quarter & would have a huge profit on our books.
Now, as I say, I'm not expecting us to buy Samsung, I'm just using that as a hypothetical that uses a brand we are all familiar with, but as you see I've just got our accounts at a huge profit, over the 10 billion a year figure I used, & within the rules of the game & FFP.
Now, again, I'm not suggesting we buy Samsung, but there is no reason why we can't diversify in other areas & increase our revenue streams accordingly.
There is actually no limit on how much a club can diversify, how much a club can earn or how big their profits can be.
It's just a case of daring to dream big & having the ability to deliver on the dream.
Have you been drinking?
From the EFL FFP regulation, describing the earnings that can be attributed to the accounts of the member club;
"for the purposes of these Rules, has the meaning set out in Section 474(1) of the 2006 Act save that it shall also include any other entity that carries on any material aspect of the football operations of the Club.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Knocker West - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 05:47 PM)selborne garibaldi Wrote:(11-03-2021, 05:14 PM)Knocker West Wrote:(11-03-2021, 05:06 PM)Paplane Wrote: I don't think it is.
It quite patently is, as I can prove with a hypothetical, included in our financial figures is all income, including from the club shop, where we sell tshirts & key-rings, among other things, oh, & phone cases, I have a nice Forest phone case, that fits my Samsung Phone.
What's that got to do with anything?
Assume NFFC owned Samsung, & I know we're not about to buy Samsung, but this is a hypothetical to make a point, so let's assume we did, & all sales went through our accounts, we'd have made 16 trillion dollars in the last quarter & would have a huge profit on our books.
Now, as I say, I'm not expecting us to buy Samsung, I'm just using that as a hypothetical that uses a brand we are all familiar with, but as you see I've just got our accounts at a huge profit, over the 10 billion a year figure I used, & within the rules of the game & FFP.
Now, again, I'm not suggesting we buy Samsung, but there is no reason why we can't diversify in other areas & increase our revenue streams accordingly.
There is actually no limit on how much a club can diversify, how much a club can earn or how big their profits can be.
It's just a case of daring to dream big & having the ability to deliver on the dream.
Have you been drinking?
From the EFL FFP regulation, describing the earnings that can be attributed to the accounts of the member club;
"for the purposes of these Rules, has the meaning set out in Section 474(1) of the 2006 Act save that it shall also include any other entity that carries on any material aspect of the football operations of the Club.
Exactly, it shall also includes any other entity that carries out any material aspect, eg. key rings, tshirts, I have a friend from Sherwood, who has obvious mental health issues, in my opinion, as he paid a fortune to get married at Anfield, I know it's pre-FFP but we once bolstered our accounts with a hit single featuring our players & the band Paper Lace, there is literally nothing that can't be bought or sold, or rented, or hired, or traded, or services provided, that can't be folded into the clubs accounts.
It is literally just about daring to dream big.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Paplane - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 05:14 PM)Knocker West Wrote:(11-03-2021, 05:06 PM)Paplane Wrote: I don't think it is.
It quite patently is, as I can prove with a hypothetical, included in our financial figures is all income, including from the club shop, where we sell tshirts & key-rings, among other things, oh, & phone cases, I have a nice Forest phone case, that fits my Samsung Phone.
What's that got to do with anything?
Assume NFFC owned Samsung, & I know we're not about to buy Samsung, but this is a hypothetical to make a point, so let's assume we did, & all sales went through our accounts, we'd have made 16 trillion dollars in the last quarter & would have a huge profit on our books.
Now, as I say, I'm not expecting us to buy Samsung, I'm just using that as a hypothetical that uses a brand we are all familiar with, but as you see I've just got our accounts at a huge profit, over the 10 billion a year figure I used, & within the rules of the game & FFP.
Now, again, I'm not suggesting we buy Samsung, but there is no reason why we can't diversify in other areas & increase our revenue streams accordingly.
There is actually no limit on how much a club can diversify, how much a club can earn or how big their profits can be.
It's just a case of daring to dream big & having the ability to deliver on the dream.
Dream on mate. Suppose Forest did own Samsung but then Samsung ran into trouble. The club would then be funding the company's debt's.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Knocker West - 11-03-2021
It should be noted that football itself gives us a sum income of virtually £0, every single penny we make is from other business, whether that is selling TV rights, tickets for a seat in the stadium, food, merchandise, it is all related income, it's all cashing in on the football,but the football itself pays virtually nothing, ask any grass roots club, where all the fat & trimmings have been cut out, & it is just 11 v 11 on a muddy field. The money comes from everything else.
RE: NFFC Financial Talk - Knocker West - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 05:56 PM)Paplane Wrote: Dream on mate. Suppose Forest did own Samsung but then Samsung ran into trouble. The club would then be funding the company's debt's.
Indeed they would, the point is though that to say it's impossible to run at a profit is to miss the fact that it is entirely possible & it should also be added desirable as evidenced by the fact that EM is on record as saying that eventually he wants this club to be self-sufficient, & that means able to turn a profit & I know most of us, including EM, look to the EPL as the most obvious solution to that, but in the case of us never getting there, which hopefully is just a nightmare & won't ever come true, that self-sufficiency would eventually have to happen at this level.