(03-11-2022, 10:05 AM)Forest1970 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:11 AM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:06 AM)Forest1970 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 08:39 AM)nffc93 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 01:50 AM)JWJW Wrote: Please change that to........we have a very good manager at Championship level...............however the question is can be make the step up and complete with Premier League level managers ?????

I think he deserves that chance personally.

Correct nffc93. As Sniffer has said in the past we were never really supposed to be promoted when we did then really all should be forgiven when we went into a bit of a panic to try and get players good enough to play in the Premiership and I do believe they will click and gel together sooner rather than later.

The trouble is when people need to keep blaming individuals instead of the whole team because the last time I looked football is a team sport and once the players are on the pitch its upto them to do their jobs to the best of their ability. At least JWJW can't keep blaming Johnson for losing now but looks like jumping to Cooper to blame and yes to some extent he should take the blame but then so should the whole team who should take responsibility.

Ok, I'd argue the whole team is peforming well below par. Its much less than the sum of it's parts. So why is that and how is it changed?

Your right Pap some of the team are doing ok but it needs everyone clicking not just the few especially in this league. If we're losing and the players are busting a gut then you can give them breathing space but by some of the games we were losing and some players are just there for the money and Not the club it needs addressing and its not just one person its 4 or 5 of them.

(03-11-2022, 09:34 AM)Sniffer Dog (Admin) Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:24 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:22 AM)Paplane Wrote: It'd hardly be a change for change's sake. Were planted at the foot of the table and bar 1 performance  we've looked completely terrible all season. The club have given Cooper every opportunity with players and his contract and we're still shite. The club have every justification to sack him if they wish.

I want him to suceed btw. I like the guy but you cant ignore what's happening on the pitch.

What is happening on the pitch Pap is what happens when you have a completely new team the majority of whom have never played at this level before.

When do we stop becoming a new team?

The player's have been here for 3 months.

3 months is a long time for a coach to work with his player's.

Not sure how much longer we can keep trotting out the 'we are a new team' line.

(03-11-2022, 10:11 AM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 10:05 AM)Forest1970 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:11 AM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 09:06 AM)Forest1970 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 08:39 AM)nffc93 Wrote: I think he deserves that chance personally.

Correct nffc93. As Sniffer has said in the past we were never really supposed to be promoted when we did then really all should be forgiven when we went into a bit of a panic to try and get players good enough to play in the Premiership and I do believe they will click and gel together sooner rather than later.

The trouble is when people need to keep blaming individuals instead of the whole team because the last time I looked football is a team sport and once the players are on the pitch its upto them to do their jobs to the best of their ability. At least JWJW can't keep blaming Johnson for losing now but looks like jumping to Cooper to blame and yes to some extent he should take the blame but then so should the whole team who should take responsibility.

Ok, I'd argue the whole team is peforming well below par. Its much less than the sum of it's parts. So why is that and how is it changed?

Your right Pap some of the team are doing ok but it needs everyone clicking not just the few especially in this league. If we're losing and the players are busting a gut then you can give them breathing space but by some of the games we were losing and some players are just there for the money and Not the club it needs addressing and its not just one person its 4 or 5 of them.

Ive not had rhe impression there's a lack of effort Salv, which brings it back to Cooper in my eyes. I think we have decent talent. I also think they players are trying hard and are still buying into their coach. So what's wrong?

(03-11-2022, 11:27 AM)wassy04 Wrote: How many of our players would get in the teams of our rivals? Henderson maybe? None in the Wolves team, none in the Leicester team, I could see MGW or Brennan getting in the Southampton team. Maybe Aurier would get in the Leeds or Southampton teams?

Serious question, I just don't see any of them getting in right now. Lingard would've done pre-season but we've seen his level now. Even before the season I'm not sure there is anyone else that I'd back in other teams sides.

Anyone have any disagreements? If we're saying our team has loads of talent and Steve is underachieving that would imply we had better teams than our rivals so you should be able to name them.

(03-11-2022, 12:02 PM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 11:27 AM)wassy04 Wrote: How many of our players would get in the teams of our rivals? Henderson maybe? None in the Wolves team, none in the Leicester team, I could see MGW or Brennan getting in the Southampton team. Maybe Aurier would get in the Leeds or Southampton teams?

Serious question, I just don't see any of them getting in right now. Lingard would've done pre-season but we've seen his level now. Even before the season I'm not sure there is anyone else that I'd back in other teams sides.

Anyone have any disagreements? If we're saying our team has loads of talent and Steve is underachieving that would imply we had better teams than our rivals so you should be able to name them.

Henderson, Lodi, Aurier, Freuler, Brennan, MGW, Williams, Dennis all get into other sides imo. Maybe not start every game I admit but there's talent there who have proved they're capable at a high level. MGW was in the Wolves side when we signed him. Lots of sides would have taken Lingard had he not been so expensive too. And when we go down there'll be prem clubs in for Yates I'm sure, as much as that would piss all the Yaters off.

(03-11-2022, 12:30 PM)wassy04 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 12:02 PM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 11:27 AM)wassy04 Wrote: How many of our players would get in the teams of our rivals? Henderson maybe? None in the Wolves team, none in the Leicester team, I could see MGW or Brennan getting in the Southampton team. Maybe Aurier would get in the Leeds or Southampton teams?

Serious question, I just don't see any of them getting in right now. Lingard would've done pre-season but we've seen his level now. Even before the season I'm not sure there is anyone else that I'd back in other teams sides.

Anyone have any disagreements? If we're saying our team has loads of talent and Steve is underachieving that would imply we had better teams than our rivals so you should be able to name them.

Henderson, Lodi, Aurier, Freuler, Brennan, MGW, Williams, Dennis all get into other sides imo. Maybe not start every game I admit but there's talent there who have proved they're capable at a high level. MGW was in the Wolves side when we signed him. Lots of sides would have taken Lingard had he not been so expensive too. And when we go down there'll be prem clubs in for Yates I'm sure, as much as that would piss all the Yaters off.

Ok so lets walk through those, Henderson yes probably although the competition is Josa Sa, Meglier, Martinez. Probably gets in ahead of Saints/Bournemouth keepers.

Is Aurier better than Semedo? Castagne? Cash?! Can't say I know the Leeds/Saints RBs.

Is Freuler better than Neves? JWP? Tielemans/Dewsbury-Hall? Douglas Luiz & Dendoncker? Cook and Lerma? (Maybe) I don't know the Leeds Cms so maybe get in there. 

Brennan?! You don't even want him in our team! (He's probably the only one I reckon would consistently start elsewhere ironically) Samw with Neco, you guys have already benched him and so has Steve.

Is MGW better than Nunes/Podence? Or Maddison/Barnes? Or Buendia/Watkins/Coutinho? Same applies to Dennis and Brennan.

My point is all the teams around us have at best similar options and at worse better options and that's our good positions.

Does anyone think McKenna/Cook are getting in any other teams? Same applies to Kouyate, Yates perhaps although again those players listed above are at least as good as him. How about Awoniyi? He's not getting in any of the other 19 teams and that is the most important position.

So based on all the above I just don't see how anyone can say we have a better team than anyone above. I think we have a squad that can be competitive but ultimately is only as good as Bournemouth on paper and they have better strikers. Leeds and Southampton are the only other ones we can compete with on paper. Obviously on paper is not the same as on the pitch and I still believe that some of these players can improve and we could still stay up. However, I just think the league is tough this year, the bottom half teams have some really top players that we don't have. I think we've caught up but that's it, if we finish above 20th we'll have overachieved.

(03-11-2022, 12:51 PM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 12:30 PM)wassy04 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 12:02 PM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 11:27 AM)wassy04 Wrote: How many of our players would get in the teams of our rivals? Henderson maybe? None in the Wolves team, none in the Leicester team, I could see MGW or Brennan getting in the Southampton team. Maybe Aurier would get in the Leeds or Southampton teams?

Serious question, I just don't see any of them getting in right now. Lingard would've done pre-season but we've seen his level now. Even before the season I'm not sure there is anyone else that I'd back in other teams sides.

Anyone have any disagreements? If we're saying our team has loads of talent and Steve is underachieving that would imply we had better teams than our rivals so you should be able to name them.

Henderson, Lodi, Aurier, Freuler, Brennan, MGW, Williams, Dennis all get into other sides imo. Maybe not start every game I admit but there's talent there who have proved they're capable at a high level. MGW was in the Wolves side when we signed him. Lots of sides would have taken Lingard had he not been so expensive too. And when we go down there'll be prem clubs in for Yates I'm sure, as much as that would piss all the Yaters off.

Ok so lets walk through those, Henderson yes probably although the competition is Josa Sa, Meglier, Martinez. Probably gets in ahead of Saints/Bournemouth keepers.

Is Aurier better than Semedo? Castagne? Cash?! Can't say I know the Leeds/Saints RBs.

Is Freuler better than Neves? JWP? Tielemans/Dewsbury-Hall? Douglas Luiz & Dendoncker? Cook and Lerma? (Maybe) I don't know the Leeds Cms so maybe get in there. 

Brennan?! You don't even want him in our team! (He's probably the only one I reckon would consistently start elsewhere ironically) Samw with Neco, you guys have already benched him and so has Steve.

Is MGW better than Nunes/Podence? Or Maddison/Barnes? Or Buendia/Watkins/Coutinho? Same applies to Dennis and Brennan.

My point is all the teams around us have at best similar options and at worse better options and that's our good positions.

Does anyone think McKenna/Cook are getting in any other teams? Same applies to Kouyate, Yates perhaps although again those players listed above are at least as good as him. How about Awoniyi? He's not getting in any of the other 19 teams and that is the most important position.

So based on all the above I just don't see how anyone can say we have a better team than anyone above. I think we have a squad that can be competitive but ultimately is only as good as Bournemouth on paper and they have better strikers. Leeds and Southampton are the only other ones we can compete with on paper. Obviously on paper is not the same as on the pitch and I still believe that some of these players can improve and we could still stay up. However, I just think the league is tough this year, the bottom half teams have some really top players that we don't have. I think we've caught up but that's it, if we finish above 20th we'll have overachieved.

I didn't say the list of players I mentioned would be regular starters for other sides. I said they would feature. I also said they had proved they were capable at a higher level. 

Henderson, Man Utd starter on occasion
Aurier, played for Villareal, PSG and Spurs
Freuler, international player who came from Serie A Atalanta.
Brennan & Williams, look good in the Wales side who are going to WC
MGW was taken out of the Wolves side when we signed him
Dennis scored 10 goals in the prem last season.

There's probably more, I cant be arsed to think about it. If your excuse for not wishing to consider the problem lies at Cooper's door is lack of talent then you need to reconsider.

I don't want you or the forum to think I'm an anti Cooper hater. I think he's an excellent coach. But, if the same things keep happening on the pitch over and over and we go back to leaking 3, 4 & 5 goals a game then I'm prepared to consider that, as much as we all love the guy, he might not actually be as good as what we think he is. I'm trying to keep an open mind. I thought he was bang on after the Leicester game when he decided to shut up shop and stop the rot.  And I'm praying that the Arsenal 'performance' was just a bad day and on Saturday we'll be back to being tight and looking dangerous as was the performance that beat Liverpool.

(03-11-2022, 01:00 PM)wassy04 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 12:51 PM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 12:30 PM)wassy04 Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 12:02 PM)Paplane Wrote:

(03-11-2022, 11:27 AM)wassy04 Wrote: How many of our players would get in the teams of our rivals? Henderson maybe? None in the Wolves team, none in the Leicester team, I could see MGW or Brennan getting in the Southampton team. Maybe Aurier would get in the Leeds or Southampton teams?

Serious question, I just don't see any of them getting in right now. Lingard would've done pre-season but we've seen his level now. Even before the season I'm not sure there is anyone else that I'd back in other teams sides.

Anyone have any disagreements? If we're saying our team has loads of talent and Steve is underachieving that would imply we had better teams than our rivals so you should be able to name them.

Henderson, Lodi, Aurier, Freuler, Brennan, MGW, Williams, Dennis all get into other sides imo. Maybe not start every game I admit but there's talent there who have proved they're capable at a high level. MGW was in the Wolves side when we signed him. Lots of sides would have taken Lingard had he not been so expensive too. And when we go down there'll be prem clubs in for Yates I'm sure, as much as that would piss all the Yaters off.

Ok so lets walk through those, Henderson yes probably although the competition is Josa Sa, Meglier, Martinez. Probably gets in ahead of Saints/Bournemouth keepers.

Is Aurier better than Semedo? Castagne? Cash?! Can't say I know the Leeds/Saints RBs.

Is Freuler better than Neves? JWP? Tielemans/Dewsbury-Hall? Douglas Luiz & Dendoncker? Cook and Lerma? (Maybe) I don't know the Leeds Cms so maybe get in there. 

Brennan?! You don't even want him in our team! (He's probably the only one I reckon would consistently start elsewhere ironically) Samw with Neco, you guys have already benched him and so has Steve.

Is MGW better than Nunes/Podence? Or Maddison/Barnes? Or Buendia/Watkins/Coutinho? Same applies to Dennis and Brennan.

My point is all the teams around us have at best similar options and at worse better options and that's our good positions.

Does anyone think McKenna/Cook are getting in any other teams? Same applies to Kouyate, Yates perhaps although again those players listed above are at least as good as him. How about Awoniyi? He's not getting in any of the other 19 teams and that is the most important position.

So based on all the above I just don't see how anyone can say we have a better team than anyone above. I think we have a squad that can be competitive but ultimately is only as good as Bournemouth on paper and they have better strikers. Leeds and Southampton are the only other ones we can compete with on paper. Obviously on paper is not the same as on the pitch and I still believe that some of these players can improve and we could still stay up. However, I just think the league is tough this year, the bottom half teams have some really top players that we don't have. I think we've caught up but that's it, if we finish above 20th we'll have overachieved.

I didn't say the list of players I mentioned would be regular starters for other sides. I said they would feature. I also said they had proved they were capable at a higher level. 

Henderson, Man Utd starter on occasion
Aurier, played for Villareal, PSG and Spurs
Freuler, international player who came from Serie A Atalanta.
Brennan & Williams, look good in the Wales side who are going to WC
MGW was taken out of the Wolves side when we signed him
Dennis scored 10 goals in the prem last season.

There's probably more, I cant be arsed to think about it. If your excuse for not wishing to consider the problem lies at Cooper's door is lack of talent then you need to reconsider.

I don't want you or the forum to think I'm an anti Cooper hater. I think he's an excellent coach. But, if the same things keep happening on the pitch over and over and we go back to leaking 3, 4 & 5 goals a game then I'm prepared to consider that, as much as we all love the guy, he might not actually be as good as what we think he is. I'm trying to keep an open mind. I thought he was bang on after the Leicester game when he decided to shut up shop and stop the rot.  And I'm praying that the Arsenal 'performance' was just a bad day and on Saturday we'll be back to being tight and looking dangerous as was the performance that beat Liverpool.

I feel like you really didn't read my post which is a shame. I wasn't saying we have a lack of talent, it was that the other teams around us are more talented. The point is all of the players you have listed are decent but the other teams have similar or in most cases better players. Two of the above are not even getting in our team! These are the better players too, the other half of the team wouldn't threaten our rivals teams. 

If you don't think think they would be regular starters for other teams how can you possibly conclude we have as good a team as those around us or better? And if our team is not as good as those around us then why would we be expected to finish above them?