Joao Carvalho

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

It's easy to forget that he is still only 22 years old.

Also before he signed for us he had played just 22 first team games of football and scored 1 goal. (Not including Benfica B which is like our under 23's).

[Alf]

He also played the slide rule ball into Grabban in the first half which Grabban failed to control, and his shot second half was on target but hit the defenders hand in the box.

But let’s single Carv out when Silva, Lolley, Cash, Mir and Adomah were all crap.

Silva was way more consistent & did his job.

Lolley was way more dangerous and threatened a decent amount 2nd half in particular.

Cash was fine, had the best shot on goal. Not up to his usual standards, but certainly not poor.

Mir was anonymous as usual, but was only on for a short time.

Adomah crossed in a fair few balls and created a bit of a threat. Not great, but again was only on for a short period.

None of them were as ineffectual as Carvalho in the role they were on the pitch for. All of them did their job best they could, but Carvalho didn't do his. 

Mir is the only one I'd even consider flaking like Carva did, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because of said game time. If he'd played another 30-40min the same I'd say the same about him too.

As I say, whipping boy, to have formed such a myopic unbalanced view, you can’t conclude anything else.

He's getting whipped because he was poor, and was entrusted a key role in which he failed to perform by some distance.

To me he was by far & away the worst player on the pitch at doing the job he was in the side for. Others didn't have the greatest games, but you don't put into context what their roles were.

It's laughable that you slate Adomah when he had 15min on the pitch, and in that time put as many - if not more - threatening balls into the box than Carvalho.

He's not for this league or this system. Now if the club can afford to hang on to him and spend what's needed to get the players here we need to go up great, we may have a young kid who will be a good player in the Prem in a few years. But if it can't & good money can be recouped for him then we should sell & reinvest in what we need now, not what may come good in a few years.

Let's not forget we've also Johnson in the squad now. If we sell Carvalho to get some funds we can invest game time in him instead, and may still end up with a quality player in that role.

[zicorice]

I'm going to dip out of this debate after this as I don't like the way it could be heading.

I think we all agree on this site that the lad has a rare talent that we dont yet see consistently enough. I assume we all want him to succeed. No one can see the future, so the question of if, when and how that happens is the difficulty. I now see football as a 14 man game and would have him in that available 14 always, not necessarily the 11 week in week out, but always playing a part at this stage. Of course it's alot of money for a player who can not establish himself yet.

That's my take, he certainly wasn't our worst player yesterday, nor was he anywhere near our best. If he takes Mwah or Sheff Weds apart,the questions will still not have been answered....yet.

[Alf]

To me I see him as a player who might be worth the hype in a few years in the right league (for us the Prem obv). The problem is we've got to get there first, and the game time he gets could possibly be better channeled elsewhere with that goal in mind.

If we sign a quality winger in Jan, I'd probably sooner see Ameobi in Carva's role if Silva is having to cover Sow/Yates. I'm also wondering if we're building for the future, is it worth giving Johnson some of this game time too?

In the role he was tasked with Carvalho was undoubtedly our worst player IMO. Who would you say was worse Zicorice? Ameobi tired and looked poor towards the end of his spell, but first half he was one of our biggest threats. I can't think of any other player in the side who was as bad as Carva yesterday.

[zicorice]

To me I see him as a player who might be worth the hype in a few years in the right league (for us the Prem obv). The problem is we've got to get there first, and the game time he gets could possibly be better channeled elsewhere with that goal in mind.

If we sign a quality winger in Jan, I'd probably sooner see Ameobi in Carva's role if Silva is having to cover Sow/Yates. I'm also wondering if we're building for the future, is it worth giving Johnson some of this game time too?

In the role he was tasked with Carvalho was undoubtedly our worst player IMO. Who would you say was worse Zicorice? Ameobi tired and looked poor towards the end of his spell, but first half he was one of our biggest threats. I can't think of any other player in the side who was as bad as Carva yesterday.

Just based on yesterday, Figs (who has been good lately) had a stinker. Ameobi, who I like, wasted really good possession and couldn't shoot. I thought Silva ran around alot, doing nothing and in Yates/Sows position created nil. Lolley struggled and was no better. Just a difficult day against a difficult side.

It's then chicken and egg isn't it? Was the number 10 off song because many of the players around him were too? Lolley and Grabs made nothing of his 2 excellent slide rule passes. He took up good positions in pockets of space, but the ball never came. The goal started when a failed cross field pass was intercepted, yet Carvalho had taken up a great position in middle of the pitch and wanted the ball. 

Or were we struggling to break down Cardiff because the number 10 couldnt open them up often enough and faded as the game wore on?

He didn't give the ball away much and but for handball would have got an equaliser. On the other hand he skied one early on after great control and faded after half time, mis controlling one out of the air that we know he can control in his sleep normally. 

It's the conundrum? Personally, I would back him and even build a team around him. Equally, I would can see the view that we need more championship style performers.  Obviously, I like him, but I am fence sitting a bit with regards to where we go. However, I do hold with his performance yesterday was not as bad-in his position- as you stated, but neither was it good enough. As Warbs might say, fine margins. He slams that early chance in different game. But the fact is, he didn't. Handball is given, or the ball flies into back of net later on, different  game. But it wasn't and it didn't, so the questions are still their.

[Alf]

To me I see him as a player who might be worth the hype in a few years in the right league (for us the Prem obv). The problem is we've got to get there first, and the game time he gets could possibly be better channeled elsewhere with that goal in mind.

If we sign a quality winger in Jan, I'd probably sooner see Ameobi in Carva's role if Silva is having to cover Sow/Yates. I'm also wondering if we're building for the future, is it worth giving Johnson some of this game time too?

In the role he was tasked with Carvalho was undoubtedly our worst player IMO. Who would you say was worse Zicorice? Ameobi tired and looked poor towards the end of his spell, but first half he was one of our biggest threats. I can't think of any other player in the side who was as bad as Carva yesterday.

Just based on yesterday, Figs (who has been good lately) had a stinker. Ameobi, who I like, wasted really good possession and couldn't shoot. I thought Silva ran around alot, doing nothing and in Yates/Sows position created nil. Lolley struggled and was no better. Just a difficult day against a difficult side.

It's then chicken and egg isn't it? Was the number 10 off song because many of the players around him were too? Lolley and Grabs made nothing of his 2 excellent slide rule passes. He took up good positions in pockets of space, but the ball never came. The goal started when a failed cross field pass was intercepted, yet Carvalho had taken up a great position in middle of the pitch and wanted the ball. 

Or were we struggling to break down Cardiff because the number 10 couldnt open them up often enough and faded as the game wore on?

He didn't give the ball away much and but for handball would have got an equaliser. On the other hand he skied one early on after great control and faded after half time, mis controlling one out of the air that we know he can control in his sleep normally. 

It's the conundrum? Personally, I would back him and even build a team around him. Equally, I would can see the view that we need more championship style performers.  Obviously, I like him, but I am fence sitting a bit with regards to where we go. However, I do hold with his performance yesterday was not as bad-in his position- as you stated, but neither was it good enough. As Warbs might say, fine margins. He slams that early chance in different game. But the fact is, he didn't. Handball is given, or the ball flies into back of net later on, different  game. But it wasn't and it didn't, so the questions are still their.

Fair points Zic, don't agree with all of them but can see your POV and you make a good point regards chicken/egg. 

I'll back the lad, always have, I'm just disappointed in him and hope it doesn't take another 18 months for him to start performing consistently.

[zicorice]

To me I see him as a player who might be worth the hype in a few years in the right league (for us the Prem obv). The problem is we've got to get there first, and the game time he gets could possibly be better channeled elsewhere with that goal in mind.

If we sign a quality winger in Jan, I'd probably sooner see Ameobi in Carva's role if Silva is having to cover Sow/Yates. I'm also wondering if we're building for the future, is it worth giving Johnson some of this game time too?

In the role he was tasked with Carvalho was undoubtedly our worst player IMO. Who would you say was worse Zicorice? Ameobi tired and looked poor towards the end of his spell, but first half he was one of our biggest threats. I can't think of any other player in the side who was as bad as Carva yesterday.

Just based on yesterday, Figs (who has been good lately) had a stinker. Ameobi, who I like, wasted really good possession and couldn't shoot. I thought Silva ran around alot, doing nothing and in Yates/Sows position created nil. Lolley struggled and was no better. Just a difficult day against a difficult side.

It's then chicken and egg isn't it? Was the number 10 off song because many of the players around him were too? Lolley and Grabs made nothing of his 2 excellent slide rule passes. He took up good positions in pockets of space, but the ball never came. The goal started when a failed cross field pass was intercepted, yet Carvalho had taken up a great position in middle of the pitch and wanted the ball. 

Or were we struggling to break down Cardiff because the number 10 couldnt open them up often enough and faded as the game wore on?

He didn't give the ball away much and but for handball would have got an equaliser. On the other hand he skied one early on after great control and faded after half time, mis controlling one out of the air that we know he can control in his sleep normally. 

It's the conundrum? Personally, I would back him and even build a team around him. Equally, I would can see the view that we need more championship style performers.  Obviously, I like him, but I am fence sitting a bit with regards to where we go. However, I do hold with his performance yesterday was not as bad-in his position- as you stated, but neither was it good enough. As Warbs might say, fine margins. He slams that early chance in different game. But the fact is, he didn't. Handball is given, or the ball flies into back of net later on, different  game. But it wasn't and it didn't, so the questions are still their.

Fair points Zic, don't agree with all of them but can see your POV and you make a good point regards chicken/egg. 

I'll back the lad, always have, I'm just disappointed in him and hope it doesn't take another 18 months for him to start performing consistently.

I think that's something we all agree on 100%.

[Maltared]

Zicorice, sorry but I dong agree with you in saying that all or most of our players had a stinker yesterday and this to try to justify his bad was Carvalho. You keep saying that he was find space so other players could pass to him, just before their goal he was in the penalty area completly unmarked, and instead of placing the ball in the top corner he placed it in thd top corner of the Bridgeford end.
Thd players you mention nd said that haix a stinker, played and contributed much more then Carvalho. Figi had a fight with Madine but the later was replaced late in thd second half, so as the game went on he became less influential.
I my opinion yesterday we struggled in the final, our finishing was crap, we controlled the midfield, especially in the second half, that is why I m pissed of with Carvalho, as in games like this I expect him to get us that goal to start us going forward, instead yesterday because of his miss we ended chasing thd game.
Thd guy is a one trick pony that will impress with thd odd flick nd the odd piece of brilliance, but is not what we need to get us out of this league.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Given your historical criticism of our midfield, Malta Red, I'd say that controlling the midfield against Cardiff would be progress in the context of the last few years. But that midfield isn't the final solution. Not without Yates. Or Samba. Or even another winger. And it was that midfield guile that Forest didn't provide to unlock that Cardiff defence. It suggests that Forest may need to bring in that kind of player or we'll drop more points ala Wigan, Hull, Cardiff and struggle against physical sides.

However, having seen the highlights on Quest and elsewhere it seemed Watson was somewhat isolated. eg. Tomlin won a free kick against him...and Tomlin (wins free kicks, has guile, wins those niggly decisions, makes a nuisance of himself) also provided an assist for the goal. Tomlin was the one they had to watch. And the guy that scored the goal for them? He seemed to have acres of space in the midfield area and wasn't closed down. This is where losing Ryan Yates has been costly. That's where not having Sow available has been costly. The latter has been massive miss. Sure, managed without him vs QPR. But that 'bit of pressure' where I felt a soft goal was coming, it seemed to. Could have done with Yates with the aerial bombardment or helping to rough up Tomlin. A game where Bostock, was again, on the bench.

As for Figs', in the build up to their goal or that period of pressure, it was the 1st game in a whilst where Forest weren't coping as imperiously with an opposition. I'd noted that. And it's another part of the period of pressure where Cardiff build their confidence. A shame because Forest had a good initial spell before Cardiff seized the initiative, got the goal and Forest seemed to lose their way for a while. Figs, another player, like Car' who scored a goal on Wed' and deserved to start.

And the shot. Samba has done well since he came in. No doubt about his class. But I bet if he could attempt that save again? He'd get there.

And Car? As soon as his name was on the starting 11 for Forest. I was somewhat apprehensive. I'd rather Semedo had started than him. And Car' to come on against a tiring Cardiff. No one can say he's not had his chance under 'The Coach.' A great goal vs QPR. But that chance in the penno area? He's got to bury that if he's worth £13 m. As simple as that. If he isn't doing that vs Cardiff, then what is he doing? Lee Tomlin provided the assist for a Cardiff goal. Car' didn't provide the assist for a Forest goal. And it's against these teams we want more 'match winning' character. Is Car getting singled out more? If he has an off game he'll get criticised. That applies to any player. Eg. Fig' had a tough time against Mad'. Last season, Watson used to get hammered for sub par performances. No player escapes criticism. But if you have a £13 price tag expectations of your performances rise accordingly.

Yates getting booked has proven costly. Whilst Forest may not have got the win yesterday. Not having Yates or Sow available is a problem. They lack the save 'next level' central midfield dimension. Not quite as robust or dynamic. They'd have come away with a draw with either in.

31 attempts on 'goal' then Forest need extra shooting practice.

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

This seemed like a game Grabban was battle weary. This is where not having a bit of competition in this area of the park doesn't help Forest or him. Especially for games like this.

Forest need to slay the demon of anti-football sides once and for all.

To do that. Forest need 'that extra touch of class' on the wings, striking departments and maybe ACM. Pace. Power. Guile.

SA.

[ThePromisedLand]

Given your historical criticism of our midfield, Malta Red, I'd say that controlling the midfield against Cardiff would be progress in the context of the last few years.  But that midfield isn't the final solution.  Not without Yates.  Or Samba.  Or even another winger.  And it was that midfield guile that Forest didn't provide to unlock that Cardiff defence.  It suggests that Forest may need to bring in that kind of player or we'll drop more points ala Wigan, Hull, Cardiff and struggle against physical sides.

However, having seen the highlights on Quest and elsewhere it seemed Watson was somewhat isolated.  eg. Tomlin won a free kick against him...and Tomlin (wins free kicks, has guile, wins those niggly decisions, makes a nuisance of himself) also provided an assist for the goal.  Tomlin was the one they had to watch.  And the guy that scored the goal for them?  He seemed to have acres of space in the midfield area and wasn't closed down.  This is where losing Ryan Yates has been costly.  That's where not having Sow available has been costly.  The latter has been massive miss.  Sure, managed without him vs QPR.  But that 'bit of pressure' where I felt a soft goal was coming, it seemed to.  Could have done with Yates with the aerial bombardment or helping to rough up Tomlin.  A game where Bostock, was again, on the bench.

As for Figs', in the build up to their goal or that period of pressure, it was the 1st game in a whilst where Forest weren't coping as imperiously with an opposition.  I'd noted that.  And it's another part of the period of pressure where Cardiff build their confidence.  A shame because Forest had a good initial spell before Cardiff seized the initiative, got the goal and Forest seemed to lose their way for a while.  Figs, another player, like Car' who scored a goal on Wed' and deserved to start. 

And the shot.  Samba has done well since he came in.  No doubt about his class.  But I bet if he could attempt that save again?  He'd get there.

And Car?  As soon as his name was on the starting 11 for Forest.  I was somewhat apprehensive.  I'd rather Semedo had started than him.  And Car' to come on against a tiring Cardiff.  No one can say he's not had his chance under 'The Coach.'  A great goal vs QPR.  But that chance in the penno area?  He's got to bury that if he's worth £13 m.  As simple as that.  If he isn't doing that vs Cardiff, then what is he doing?  Lee Tomlin provided the assist for a Cardiff goal.  Car' didn't provide the assist for a Forest goal.  And it's against these teams we want more 'match winning' character.  Is Car getting singled out more?  If he has an off game he'll get criticised.  That applies to any player.  Eg.  Fig' had a tough time against Mad'.  Last season, Watson used to get hammered for sub par performances.  No player escapes criticism.  But if you have a £13 price tag expectations of your performances rise accordingly.

Yates getting booked has proven costly.  Whilst Forest may not have got the win yesterday.  Not having Yates or Sow available is a problem.  They lack the save 'next level' central midfield dimension.  Not quite as robust or dynamic.  They'd have come away with a draw with either in.

31 attempts on 'goal' then Forest need extra shooting practice.

SA.

If Yates is the answer then I give up watching any football never mind Forest  :@

[zicorice]

Zicorice, sorry but I dong agree with you in saying that all or most of our players had a stinker yesterday and this to try to justify his bad was Carvalho.  You keep saying that he was find space so other players could pass to him, just before their goal he was in the penalty area  completly unmarked, and instead of placing the ball in the top corner he placed it in thd top corner of the Bridgeford end.
Thd players you mention nd said that haix a stinker, played and contributed much more then Carvalho.  Figi had a fight with Madine but the later was replaced late in thd second half, so as the game went on he became less influential.
I my opinion yesterday we struggled in the final,  our finishing was crap, we controlled the midfield, especially in the second half, that is why I m pissed of with Carvalho,  as in games like this I expect him to get us that goal to start us going forward, instead yesterday because of his miss we ended chasing thd game.
Thd guy is a one trick pony that will impress with thd odd flick nd the odd piece of brilliance, but is not what we need to get us out of this league.

SA has pretty much beat me to the reply, so "what he said". As for Carvalho missing the target, so did 29 other chances. I assume you were at the game. The only way that certain players contributed more, was that they were on the pitch longer. We will have to agree to disagree on many of your points. I am a glass half full kind of guy, historically your postings have tended to be of the glass half empty persuasion, which after the last 20 years is fair enough. I'm certainly not a happy clapper and am very cynical with regards to NFFC especially now we have hit December. I do however try to be balanced in my critique of players, as do most others. Perfection in this league simply isn't possible.