Joao Carvalho

[Strawberry Avenger]

I honestly can't see where Carvalho fits in under MON.

I will call it now, if MON stays in the summer then Carvalho will be gone.

I agree Alf.

This ^

It's MON or Carvalho, I can't see it being both. MON will have his own players coming in the summer.

Fine by me.  I'll respect whatever call MoN makes.

Based upon what Car' has done this season, I'd rather Forest would have had 5 £3 million players in the areas of the pitch Forest need it.

Can we imagine a £3 million keeper?
A robust £3 million ACM who could hold the ball up?
A winger at £3 million?
A LB at £3million?
A striker at £3 million?

Those 5 signings might have made far more impact when Forest's team looked threadbare of confidence and depth last December.

SA.

[wassy04]

I think we’re all in agreement that it was a poor decision to spend £13m on an investment signing when we wanted to be challenging this season.

However please can you and everyone separate the criticism of that decision and criticism of the player himself. Just because he’s not worth this figure right now doesn’t mean he’s a bad player. He’s still the best player we have in that position and I think we’d do better with him in that another DM.

[Strawberry Avenger]

I think we’re all in agreement that it was a poor decision to spend £13m on an investment signing when we wanted to be challenging this season.

However please can you and everyone separate the criticism of that decision and criticism of the player himself. Just because he’s not worth this figure right now doesn’t mean he’s a bad player. He’s still the best player we have in that position and I think we’d do better with him in that another DM.

See my 'thoughts' (such as they are...) on the other 'boo' thread, Wassy04.  Even I'm not crazy enough to type them out again.  And I'll spare you a cut and paste.

I think with the benefit of hindsight, your sentence is pretty much where people are coming from.  That may not be Car's fault but one the Greek hierarchy need to learn from.  There's no way Car' was ready for a full season.  And Forest can't afford to do that and expect to be in the top 2.  Injuries happen.  Loss of form happens.  Betting £13.5 on the roulette wheel of the Championship?

We're darn lucky to be 3 points off the play offs.

Car' has played his part (during the better weather...) and he looked a player.  But the tail off of Dias, Gonzo and finally Car' was predictable.  That's scouting.  That's recruitment.

He's not a bad player.  But is he up to the muck an nettles of the Championship?  (Answers on a post card...)  Probably better suited to Portugal 'right now' in Benfica's 1st team or development squad.  But he's proven that he's not up to a full season in the Championship. And that's not a luxury Forest can afford for such a pivotal position and your Greek Boss expects you to be top 2.  We're not Chelsea.  In two years Car' may be a world beater.  (Still waiting for Bre' to prove me wrong and start knocking in those 20 goals a season...but he's young too...)  They both fall into a category called 'not proven.'  

He doesn't have any competition in 'that' position because Soudani is injured.  He's 'the only' player we have in that position.  And that means he's got no competition to push him.  If he isn't doing it...in training on the pitch or by whatever other metric...

I'll trust and back Martin's judgement as to why not.  (I'm guessing you don't get picked if you pull out of tackles and don't do your job of holding the ball up.)  Car's seems battle weary and his confidence has followed.  That was here long before Martin turned up.  He's tried the cotton wool effect.  (To shield him...)  But he had his start vs Villa and?

It becomes a catch 22 if you don't perform.

And the Summer recruitment could see that answer resolved.  Whether he's a 'good' player or not.  He may not be suited to life in the Championship (all season long) and where we are right now.

It doesn't just apply to Car'.  I suspect if we do (and don't get promoted) there is going to be a cull that won't be that different to Aitor's post - Preston 'Bloody Valentine.'

How many times have we had the chance to go into the play offs?  And we've bottled it?

It's just Car' was part of that 4 player midfield attacking line up.  Dias.  Gonzo.  Soudani.  Car'.

That IS our creative midfield line up from the Summer recruitment.  How's the return been on the best part of £20 million of fees and wages?

Take those away and you're left with Lolley (last season recruitment), Yates (who did well pre-season) and Cash (academy...) and Grabban's tendons (bought injured as with Forest tradition.)

Martin's walking on water.  Let's not boo his judgement.  (He did bring us great CHs!!!)

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

I wouldn't say Car' is a bad player. It would be insane to say that. But I think Os', Lolley, Murphy, Cash have done just as much over this season. For far less money.

They aren't 'bad' players either.

Are any of those top 2? Results say no. Maybe Lolley?

SA.

[wassy04]

I’m going to attempt to reply to all your carvalho related messages in one response on this thread. I really want people to take the £13m part away when judging ether carvalho should play or not. I know that is not easy but you should judge his ability on a par with everyone else.

Catastrophising comments like he quit in winter etc is a massive generalisation. The team as a whole lowered the level and haven’t properly recovered. Since when has the job of an attacking midfielder been holding the ball up?

I think Carvalho has been better than Murphy and Osborn this season when selected personally, don’t care how much they cost. I think he should be getting more game time than he is. I think he sometimes disappears from games a bit but he’s the best player we have in that position and the team looks better going forward when he’s on the field.

Apologise in advance for being condescending but can you try and reply without mentioning the other Portuguese players or his transfer fee please as I’m purely referring to his value to the team now.

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

I honestly can't see where Carvalho fits in under MON.

I will call it now, if MON stays in the summer then Carvalho will be gone.

I will go one step further and put the cat among the pigeons.

I can see Carvalho going to Olympiakos on a season long loan in the summer.

That is based on opinon not fact (at the moment).

[the jock]

MON said himself last week his ideal player is big strong athletic and can play(which i agree with) soon as he came i had doubts carvalho had a future based on his management of Ireland.

[Maltared]

I honestly can't see where Carvalho fits in under MON.

I will call it now, if MON stays in the summer then Carvalho will be gone.

I will go one step further and put the cat among the pigeons.

I can see Carvalho going to Olympiakos on a season long loan in the summer.

That is based on opinon not fact (at the moment).

We need a loan fee of 3 million or there abouts ...to make it worth it .... since I imagine that is the figure we have to pay Benfica each year...

[Mad Squad]

I honestly can't see where Carvalho fits in under MON.

I will call it now, if MON stays in the summer then Carvalho will be gone.

I will go one step further and put the cat among the pigeons.

I can see Carvalho going to Olympiakos on a season long loan in the summer.

That is based on opinon not fact (at the moment).

I can see some logic in that move (puts tin hat on).

Hw will rip the Greek League a new one, then his value will increase and clubs from Spain and Italy etc will sit up and take notice and we may get get our money back. If we try to sell him this summer we won't get our money back.

[stirred]

I think I’d prefer this if we can get a decent loan fee than cash a hefty loss. Could suit his play more and get in the European shop window, whether he comes back or not. Provided we don’t have a liquidity problem with spending on a replacement which I would expect we wouldn’t.

Though in an ideal world we buy quality midfielders in the summer to support him and play to his strengths.

[Username]

Makes a lot of sense to me, particularly if Martin is still manager come August.

[Alf]

Thought I’d look at goals/assist stats for other similar players as his production has been criticised.

Carvalho - 2272 mins 4 goals 6 assists
Grealish - 2247 mins 4 goals 5 assists
Norwood - 3222 mins 3 goals 8 assists
Mount - 2347 mins 5 goals 3 assists
Brownhill - 3168 mins 3 goals 2 assist
Howson - 3223 mins 1 goal 5 assists
Gallagher - 2058 mins 6 goals 7 assists

Tried to pick what looked like the most comparable player in each team, can’t say I follow these teams enough to be certain I picked the right player but I feel it proves the point.

How much do people think grealish and mount are worth for example?

Interestingly, Tyler Walker scored 4 goals in half a season under Warbs, playing a lot of games in wider positions.

Now dare i suggest we recoup what we paid for Carva and give our own players who cost £0, and have scored 20+ goals this year in a lower league,  a chance?

Tyler has to be given a chance.  Given we've had a injured 'star' striker, an aged super sub...then Tyler would have been the legs in-between this season.  20+ goals.  If it was anyone else we'd be saying take a punt on him before someone else snaps him up.

Pre-season with the young guns along with Yates, Appiah, Worrall.  

SA.

Ha so the resolution of this is Tyler should be given a chance?! You know carvalho is pretty young right? Maybe give him the same respect as the others. At this point it’s all about his value, not convinced he’s worth any more or less than ourother academy prospects at thus point. 

I do agree in MON’s tactics it’s hard to see him building the team round carvalho but at the same time we’re not going to get 13mil back. Can’t see us  getting a big fee so might have to find a role for him.

Happy to give both a chance, but there's not 13m worth of investment tied up on Walker, there is in Carva.

The club needs to be able to fund signings for next year, and selling Walker would fetch a relitively small amount, whereas Carva could still fetch a fair amount based on reputation & odd flashes of brilliances alone. A top foriegn club isn't gonna come in for a striker who's done well at Stags, whereas one may fancy Carva as an option for the future at 8-10m (doubt we'll get 13 for him).

Like I say, I'm fine either way, I just find it funny how Carva is veiwed as the answer to all our problems from some quarters, yet those same quaters would shout anyone down who suggested Walker may be worth another look.

In terms of goals contributed there's certainly very little between them, and Walker scored as many in a worse team & playing largely out wide. Whilst Carva's quality is there to see, we really shouldn't be building a club around 1 player who doesn't really fit into the system we use. At best under MON Carva always be in & out the side until he grows in presence.