Thoughts On The Next Nottingham Forest Manager

[wassy04]

Henderson, Lodi, Aurier, Freuler, Brennan, MGW, Williams, Dennis all get into other sides imo. Maybe not start every game I admit but there's talent there who have proved they're capable at a high level. MGW was in the Wolves side when we signed him. Lots of sides would have taken Lingard had he not been so expensive too. And when we go down there'll be prem clubs in for Yates I'm sure, as much as that would piss all the Yaters off.

Ok so lets walk through those, Henderson yes probably although the competition is Josa Sa, Meglier, Martinez. Probably gets in ahead of Saints/Bournemouth keepers.

Is Aurier better than Semedo? Castagne? Cash?! Can't say I know the Leeds/Saints RBs.

Is Freuler better than Neves? JWP? Tielemans/Dewsbury-Hall? Douglas Luiz & Dendoncker? Cook and Lerma? (Maybe) I don't know the Leeds Cms so maybe get in there. 

Brennan?! You don't even want him in our team! (He's probably the only one I reckon would consistently start elsewhere ironically) Samw with Neco, you guys have already benched him and so has Steve.

Is MGW better than Nunes/Podence? Or Maddison/Barnes? Or Buendia/Watkins/Coutinho? Same applies to Dennis and Brennan.

My point is all the teams around us have at best similar options and at worse better options and that's our good positions.

Does anyone think McKenna/Cook are getting in any other teams? Same applies to Kouyate, Yates perhaps although again those players listed above are at least as good as him. How about Awoniyi? He's not getting in any of the other 19 teams and that is the most important position.

So based on all the above I just don't see how anyone can say we have a better team than anyone above. I think we have a squad that can be competitive but ultimately is only as good as Bournemouth on paper and they have better strikers. Leeds and Southampton are the only other ones we can compete with on paper. Obviously on paper is not the same as on the pitch and I still believe that some of these players can improve and we could still stay up. However, I just think the league is tough this year, the bottom half teams have some really top players that we don't have. I think we've caught up but that's it, if we finish above 20th we'll have overachieved.

I didn't say the list of players I mentioned would be regular starters for other sides. I said they would feature. I also said they had proved they were capable at a higher level. 

Henderson, Man Utd starter on occasion
Aurier, played for Villareal, PSG and Spurs
Freuler, international player who came from Serie A Atalanta.
Brennan & Williams, look good in the Wales side who are going to WC
MGW was taken out of the Wolves side when we signed him
Dennis scored 10 goals in the prem last season.

There's probably more, I cant be arsed to think about it. If your excuse for not wishing to consider the problem lies at Cooper's door is lack of talent then you need to reconsider.

I don't want you or the forum to think I'm an anti Cooper hater. I think he's an excellent coach. But, if the same things keep happening on the pitch over and over and we go back to leaking 3, 4 & 5 goals a game then I'm prepared to consider that, as much as we all love the guy, he might not actually be as good as what we think he is. I'm trying to keep an open mind. I thought he was bang on after the Leicester game when he decided to shut up shop and stop the rot.  And I'm praying that the Arsenal 'performance' was just a bad day and on Saturday we'll be back to being tight and looking dangerous as was the performance that beat Liverpool.

I feel like you really didn't read my post which is a shame. I wasn't saying we have a lack of talent, it was that the other teams around us are more talented. The point is all of the players you have listed are decent but the other teams have similar or in most cases better players. Two of the above are not even getting in our team! These are the better players too, the other half of the team wouldn't threaten our rivals teams. 

If you don't think think they would be regular starters for other teams how can you possibly conclude we have as good a team as those around us or better? And if our team is not as good as those around us then why would we be expected to finish above them?

There's more to it than our squad having less talent. We've been completely and utterly over-run in games, even by teams like Bournemouth and Fulham with whom we demonstrated last season we could challenge. I think you could also look at it in reverse. Would those players in the other prem sides you mention make us better? I suspect if you dropped them into our side then they'd also struggle, just as I think if you dropped a Freuler or Lodi into their sides they'd prosper. Why has pretty much every single player we signed in the summer failed? It can't be coincidence. You'd expect more than one or two to show signs by now of being half decent.

They've failed because they are average players at this level and the other players alongside them are below that so it is made more difficult. Perhaps with greater support in midfield MGW/Brennan/Lingard would look better for example.

Yes Semedo, Castagne, Cash would all improve us (as would Spence). Neves, JWP, Tielemans, Douglas Luiz, Lerma, Podence, Maddison, Barnes, Buendia, Watson would all definitely improve our team. Same as if we added Vardy, Solanke, Moore, Ings, (Leicester's backup strikers even). Our rivals have better teams than us. They all have a few players that would really improve our team and that's the problem. We don't have any standout players right now, we have some solid ones but that's it. 

Surely you can agree on paper we have the worst team in the league? That doesn't mean we will finish 20th or that we can't finish higher it just means the odds are a bit more stacked against us.

We lost 3-2 to both Fulham and Bournemouth I'd hardly call that overrun. However both have better teams than us. Did we compete with them last year? We got battered 4-0 at home to Fulham and also lost both times to Bournemouth?

[Paplane]

Ok so lets walk through those, Henderson yes probably although the competition is Josa Sa, Meglier, Martinez. Probably gets in ahead of Saints/Bournemouth keepers.

Is Aurier better than Semedo? Castagne? Cash?! Can't say I know the Leeds/Saints RBs.

Is Freuler better than Neves? JWP? Tielemans/Dewsbury-Hall? Douglas Luiz & Dendoncker? Cook and Lerma? (Maybe) I don't know the Leeds Cms so maybe get in there. 

Brennan?! You don't even want him in our team! (He's probably the only one I reckon would consistently start elsewhere ironically) Samw with Neco, you guys have already benched him and so has Steve.

Is MGW better than Nunes/Podence? Or Maddison/Barnes? Or Buendia/Watkins/Coutinho? Same applies to Dennis and Brennan.

My point is all the teams around us have at best similar options and at worse better options and that's our good positions.

Does anyone think McKenna/Cook are getting in any other teams? Same applies to Kouyate, Yates perhaps although again those players listed above are at least as good as him. How about Awoniyi? He's not getting in any of the other 19 teams and that is the most important position.

So based on all the above I just don't see how anyone can say we have a better team than anyone above. I think we have a squad that can be competitive but ultimately is only as good as Bournemouth on paper and they have better strikers. Leeds and Southampton are the only other ones we can compete with on paper. Obviously on paper is not the same as on the pitch and I still believe that some of these players can improve and we could still stay up. However, I just think the league is tough this year, the bottom half teams have some really top players that we don't have. I think we've caught up but that's it, if we finish above 20th we'll have overachieved.

I didn't say the list of players I mentioned would be regular starters for other sides. I said they would feature. I also said they had proved they were capable at a higher level. 

Henderson, Man Utd starter on occasion
Aurier, played for Villareal, PSG and Spurs
Freuler, international player who came from Serie A Atalanta.
Brennan & Williams, look good in the Wales side who are going to WC
MGW was taken out of the Wolves side when we signed him
Dennis scored 10 goals in the prem last season.

There's probably more, I cant be arsed to think about it. If your excuse for not wishing to consider the problem lies at Cooper's door is lack of talent then you need to reconsider.

I don't want you or the forum to think I'm an anti Cooper hater. I think he's an excellent coach. But, if the same things keep happening on the pitch over and over and we go back to leaking 3, 4 & 5 goals a game then I'm prepared to consider that, as much as we all love the guy, he might not actually be as good as what we think he is. I'm trying to keep an open mind. I thought he was bang on after the Leicester game when he decided to shut up shop and stop the rot.  And I'm praying that the Arsenal 'performance' was just a bad day and on Saturday we'll be back to being tight and looking dangerous as was the performance that beat Liverpool.

I feel like you really didn't read my post which is a shame. I wasn't saying we have a lack of talent, it was that the other teams around us are more talented. The point is all of the players you have listed are decent but the other teams have similar or in most cases better players. Two of the above are not even getting in our team! These are the better players too, the other half of the team wouldn't threaten our rivals teams. 

If you don't think think they would be regular starters for other teams how can you possibly conclude we have as good a team as those around us or better? And if our team is not as good as those around us then why would we be expected to finish above them?

There's more to it than our squad having less talent. We've been completely and utterly over-run in games, even by teams like Bournemouth and Fulham with whom we demonstrated last season we could challenge. I think you could also look at it in reverse. Would those players in the other prem sides you mention make us better? I suspect if you dropped them into our side then they'd also struggle, just as I think if you dropped a Freuler or Lodi into their sides they'd prosper. Why has pretty much every single player we signed in the summer failed? It can't be coincidence. You'd expect more than one or two to show signs by now of being half decent.

They've failed because they are average players at this level and the other players alongside them are below that so it is made more difficult. Perhaps with greater support in midfield MGW/Brennan/Lingard would look better for example.

Yes Semedo, Castagne, Cash would all improve us (as would Spence). Neves, JWP, Tielemans, Douglas Luiz, Lerma, Podence, Maddison, Barnes, Buendia, Watson would all definitely improve our team. Same as if we added Vardy, Solanke, Moore, Ings, (Leicester's backup strikers even). Our rivals have better teams than us. They all have a few players that would really improve our team and that's the problem. We don't have any standout players right now, we have some solid ones but that's it. 

Surely you can agree on paper we have the worst team in the league? That doesn't mean we will finish 20th or that we can't finish higher it just means the odds are a bit more stacked against us. 

We lost 3-2 to both Fulham and Bournemouth I'd hardly call that overrun. However both have better teams than us. Did we compete with them last year? We got battered 4-0 at home to Fulham and also lost both times to Bournemouth?

I'm enjoying debating with you Wassy and yes, I agree on paper we have have the worse team but isn't that normal for the team that wins the play offs? The club obviously realised that and that's why the big man got his cheque book out. But even so, I'd argue that with the additions we've made we should expect that the side ought to maybe be a bit closer to the level required. Just be a bit more competitive in games perhaps?. We've had one decent performance all season and even in that game we gave the opposition ample opportunities to beat us. Whatever way you look at it, be it poor recruitment, throwing away an established side, remaining players not be up to the required level, new player unfamiliarity, naïve formations, a lot (maybe not all) of these problems lead right back to Cooper. I'd love him to put us on a brilliant display on Saturday and if he does, and he proves that Arsenal was merely a set-back on the longer road to improvement, then I'll be his biggest fan. But if we get another bad game then I think he's done.

And re Fulham and Bournemouth, have you forgotten how these teams beat us this season? We were 2-0 up against Bournemouth at HT but were lucky to be so at the time. The performance wasn't good at all despite the scroreline. Then second half we capitulated. And against Fulham we crumbled again and handed them the win. And re last season, for two thirds of the year we were better than Bournemouth and arguably the same with Fulham. We beat Fulham by the odd goal and lost to Bournemouth by a single goal. And interestingly in that Bournemouth game we came away thinking we'd conceded the game in the second half rather than them getting better. We were the better side 1st half. Familiar to this season maybe?

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

Wassy who were you expecting us to sign?

Salah, Ronaldo, Saka, Kante, Pickford, Stones?

You have said yourself that we signed average player's for the PL, so on that bases we should be in an average position in the league which on average is half way. But we are not in an average position we are rock bottom.

We have a decent enough squad and I remain convinced that we have made some good signings. Last season people were saying that if we don't go up then Worrall, Yates, Mckenna and Johnson will all leave for the PL. Add to that Henderson an England International, Aurier who is proven at PL level, Lodi a Brazilian International, Freuler who ripped up Serie A last season, Lingard (lets be honest outside of the big 6 who wouldn't have taken him?), Awoniyi 19 goals in one of the toughest leagues in Europe last season. I could go on but I won't.

So what has gone wrong? I am sorry but this group of player's are more than good enough to be pushing mid table but for some reason it ain't happening is it.

[wassy04]

Wassy who were you expecting us to sign?

Salah, Ronaldo, Saka, Kante, Pickford, Stones?

You have said yourself that we signed average player's for the PL, so on that bases we should be in an average position in the league which on average is half way. But we are not in an average position we are rock bottom.

We have a decent enough squad and I remain convinced that we have made some good signings. Last season people were saying that if we don't go up then Worrall, Yates, Mckenna and Johnson will all leave for the PL. Add to that Henderson an England International, Aurier who is proven at PL level, Lodi a Brazilian International, Freuler who ripped up Serie A last season, Lingard (lets be honest outside of the big 6 who wouldn't have taken him?), Awoniyi 19 goals in one of the toughest leagues in Europe last season. I could go on but I won't.

So what has gone wrong? I am sorry but this group of player's are more than good enough to be pushing mid table but for some reason it ain't happening is it.

I meant average for our level, which is bottom 5.

I'm not in anyway criticising the club, I liked our business at the time. This is an acknowledgement that the odds were/still are stacked against us. Building a new squad from scratch is challenging, even ignoring the difficulty in gelling them/working out the best team. You're making my point for me, we couldn't sign these top players, the players that were available to us were either young and upcoming players from abroad or the championship or veterans that weren't quite good enough for teams higher up. I think we took some decent swings at it but it hasn't worked so far.

These are our "best" players, all our rivals have equal or better players. That's our top players, what about the weaker half of our team? The issue is simply that the other teams around us have built better teams over time and have a couple of elite assets that we don't have at this level. Every team has at least 2-3 around us, we have no-one right now.

Henderson - Josa Sa, Meglier, Martinez
Aurier - Semedo, Castagne, Cash
Freuler - Neves, JWP, Tielemans, Douglas Luiz, Dendoncker, Lerma
Lingard/MGW/Brennan - Podence, Nunes, Buendia, Watkins, Coutinho, Billing, Maddison, Barnes
Taiwo - Vardy, Daka, Iheancho, Costa, Ings, Solanke, Moore, Bamford

For the record I think 9 points at this point is an excellent effort in these circumstances and about where I'd expect to be. Any better than 20th would be an overachievement, I certainly don't see this as a failure of a season. We're only 3 points off 17th with two winnable home games coming up.

[Paplane]

Wassy who were you expecting us to sign?

Salah, Ronaldo, Saka, Kante, Pickford, Stones?

You have said yourself that we signed average player's for the PL, so on that bases we should be in an average position in the league which on average is half way. But we are not in an average position we are rock bottom.

We have a decent enough squad and I remain convinced that we have made some good signings. Last season people were saying that if we don't go up then Worrall, Yates, Mckenna and Johnson will all leave for the PL. Add to that Henderson an England International, Aurier who is proven at PL level, Lodi a Brazilian International, Freuler who ripped up Serie A last season, Lingard (lets be honest outside of the big 6 who wouldn't have taken him?), Awoniyi 19 goals in one of the toughest leagues in Europe last season. I could go on but I won't.

So what has gone wrong? I am sorry but this group of player's are more than good enough to be pushing mid table but for some reason it ain't happening is it.

Agree entirely Sniff but I'd say mid-table would be a bit of an over-expectation. 15 to 17th certainly in the first season. Competitive in games, definitely. Getting stuffed 5 nil and 6 nil away at every big club visited and having zero attempts on target. Definitely not.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

We're only 3 points off 17th with two winnable home games coming up.

^ This

How about we revisit this thread if we lose both games?
Should we win both then I hope we don’t revisit it for a long time.

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

I don't buy that Wassy. You could put Messi and Haaland in our team and they would turn to shit.

Nothing wrong with Henderson, Aurier, Lodi, Johnson, Freuler, Mgw and Taiwo etc except that for some reason our coach has not been able to get a tune out of them so far for whatever reason.

[Paplane]

We're only 3 points off 17th with two winnable home games coming up.

^ This

How about we revisit this thread if we lose both games?
Should we win both then I hope we don’t revisit it for a long time.

Its an absolute miracle Salv that we're still in with a chance of getting out of trouble after how poor we've been. After the Wolves game we were staring at three almost certain defeats to come and potentially being 7 or 8 points adrift of 17th. Thank god Cooper said enough is enough and adopted the low block formation. I just hope he's been able to get into the players heads this week, and got them over the weekend. Two wins in these next two games would be incredible and as you say all this negative talk will be put on hold (until we get beat 6-0 at Old Trafford in December.  :giggle: )

[wassy04]

I didn't say the list of players I mentioned would be regular starters for other sides. I said they would feature. I also said they had proved they were capable at a higher level. 

Henderson, Man Utd starter on occasion
Aurier, played for Villareal, PSG and Spurs
Freuler, international player who came from Serie A Atalanta.
Brennan & Williams, look good in the Wales side who are going to WC
MGW was taken out of the Wolves side when we signed him
Dennis scored 10 goals in the prem last season.

There's probably more, I cant be arsed to think about it. If your excuse for not wishing to consider the problem lies at Cooper's door is lack of talent then you need to reconsider.

I don't want you or the forum to think I'm an anti Cooper hater. I think he's an excellent coach. But, if the same things keep happening on the pitch over and over and we go back to leaking 3, 4 & 5 goals a game then I'm prepared to consider that, as much as we all love the guy, he might not actually be as good as what we think he is. I'm trying to keep an open mind. I thought he was bang on after the Leicester game when he decided to shut up shop and stop the rot.  And I'm praying that the Arsenal 'performance' was just a bad day and on Saturday we'll be back to being tight and looking dangerous as was the performance that beat Liverpool.

I feel like you really didn't read my post which is a shame. I wasn't saying we have a lack of talent, it was that the other teams around us are more talented. The point is all of the players you have listed are decent but the other teams have similar or in most cases better players. Two of the above are not even getting in our team! These are the better players too, the other half of the team wouldn't threaten our rivals teams. 

If you don't think think they would be regular starters for other teams how can you possibly conclude we have as good a team as those around us or better? And if our team is not as good as those around us then why would we be expected to finish above them?

There's more to it than our squad having less talent. We've been completely and utterly over-run in games, even by teams like Bournemouth and Fulham with whom we demonstrated last season we could challenge. I think you could also look at it in reverse. Would those players in the other prem sides you mention make us better? I suspect if you dropped them into our side then they'd also struggle, just as I think if you dropped a Freuler or Lodi into their sides they'd prosper. Why has pretty much every single player we signed in the summer failed? It can't be coincidence. You'd expect more than one or two to show signs by now of being half decent.

They've failed because they are average players at this level and the other players alongside them are below that so it is made more difficult. Perhaps with greater support in midfield MGW/Brennan/Lingard would look better for example.

Yes Semedo, Castagne, Cash would all improve us (as would Spence). Neves, JWP, Tielemans, Douglas Luiz, Lerma, Podence, Maddison, Barnes, Buendia, Watson would all definitely improve our team. Same as if we added Vardy, Solanke, Moore, Ings, (Leicester's backup strikers even). Our rivals have better teams than us. They all have a few players that would really improve our team and that's the problem. We don't have any standout players right now, we have some solid ones but that's it. 

Surely you can agree on paper we have the worst team in the league? That doesn't mean we will finish 20th or that we can't finish higher it just means the odds are a bit more stacked against us. 

We lost 3-2 to both Fulham and Bournemouth I'd hardly call that overrun. However both have better teams than us. Did we compete with them last year? We got battered 4-0 at home to Fulham and also lost both times to Bournemouth?

I'm enjoying debating with you Wassy and yes, I agree on paper we have have the worse team but isn't that normal for the team that wins the play offs? The club obviously realised that and that's why the big man got his cheque book out. But even so, I'd argue that with the additions we've made we should expect that the side ought to maybe be a bit closer to the level required. Just be a bit more competitive in games perhaps?. We've had one decent performance all season and even in that game we gave the opposition ample opportunities to beat us. Whatever way you look at it, be it poor recruitment, throwing away an established side, remaining players not be up to the required level, new player unfamiliarity, naïve formations, a lot (maybe not all) of these problems lead right back to Cooper. I'd love him to put us on a brilliant display on Saturday and if he does, and he proves that Arsenal was merely a set-back on the longer road to improvement, then I'll be his biggest fan. But if we get another bad game then I think he's done.

And re Fulham and Bournemouth, have you forgotten how these teams beat us this season? We were 2-0 up against Bournemouth at HT but were lucky to be so at the time. The performance wasn't good at all despite the scroreline. Then second half we capitulated. And against Fulham we crumbled again and handed them the win. And re last season, for two thirds of the year we were better than Bournemouth and arguably the same with Fulham. We beat Fulham by the odd goal and lost to Bournemouth by a single goal. And interestingly in that Bournemouth game we came away thinking we'd conceded the game in the second half rather than them getting better. We were the better side 1st half. Familiar to this season maybe?

Likewise! You kind of making my point there, yes the odds were massively stacked against us due to being the playoff team, therefore to expect us to stay up would be optimistic. We have been competitive in all games since Leicester apart from Arsenal. I'd say we deserved to beat Liverpool (lets not forget we missed what 3 one on ones), we were the better team against Villa IMO, not so much in the other games but they were only narrow defeats or draws. I do agree that we could be more competitive, that's probably what separates us from Bournemouth/Southampton right now.

Against Bournemouth I wouldn't say we were lucky to be 2-0, not saying we played great but on the other hand, we were comfortably better than them, they had no chances until that wonder goal went in. Fulham yes I agree, we played really well last year in that second game but did also get battered in the first game so it would be unfair to ignore the first one and just count the 2nd one! You're right both Bournemouth games were pretty similar, certainly Fulham were way more consistent than us last year, you don't win the league by that far without being easily the best team. Bournemouth are 100% our target, I'm hoping they will gradually fade while we continue to improve as the benefits from consistency of selection and players understanding improves.

For me the biggest disappointment and perhaps what's set us back is none of our players have really stepped up to say they should be playing at a team in midtable or higher than that. We've not really got a star whereas last year we obviously had a number of players that were leading the team ie Brennan, Spence, Worrall, McKenna, Garner. For us to stay up (and this is regardless of manager) we are going to need at least one of MGW, Brennan, Lingard, Taiwo, Freuler or maybe a Neco/Aurier to really raise their level to that of our rivals top players. That's the challenge, perhaps all it would take is a few bigs games for one of them to break out. So far only Yates has really put in a performance that would put him above other players in his position. Unless someone remembers otherwise?

[wassy04]

I don't buy that Wassy. You could put Messi and Haaland in our team and they would turn to S**t.

Nothing wrong with Henderson, Aurier, Lodi, Johnson, Freuler, Mgw and Taiwo etc except that for some reason our coach has not been able to get a tune out of them so far for whatever reason.

If we had Messi and Haaland we would not be bottom!

Those players are good not great, that's the issue. I hope Cooper and his team can coach an improvement out of them to help them reach their potential. It will take time, none of them have proven it at this level in this league except perhaps Aurier to a lesser extent (and I'd say he's been good so far, better than expected).

For me the season rests on at least one of Brennan, MGW and Lingard stepping up to the next level.

[Paplane]

I feel like you really didn't read my post which is a shame. I wasn't saying we have a lack of talent, it was that the other teams around us are more talented. The point is all of the players you have listed are decent but the other teams have similar or in most cases better players. Two of the above are not even getting in our team! These are the better players too, the other half of the team wouldn't threaten our rivals teams. 

If you don't think think they would be regular starters for other teams how can you possibly conclude we have as good a team as those around us or better? And if our team is not as good as those around us then why would we be expected to finish above them?

There's more to it than our squad having less talent. We've been completely and utterly over-run in games, even by teams like Bournemouth and Fulham with whom we demonstrated last season we could challenge. I think you could also look at it in reverse. Would those players in the other prem sides you mention make us better? I suspect if you dropped them into our side then they'd also struggle, just as I think if you dropped a Freuler or Lodi into their sides they'd prosper. Why has pretty much every single player we signed in the summer failed? It can't be coincidence. You'd expect more than one or two to show signs by now of being half decent.

They've failed because they are average players at this level and the other players alongside them are below that so it is made more difficult. Perhaps with greater support in midfield MGW/Brennan/Lingard would look better for example.

Yes Semedo, Castagne, Cash would all improve us (as would Spence). Neves, JWP, Tielemans, Douglas Luiz, Lerma, Podence, Maddison, Barnes, Buendia, Watson would all definitely improve our team. Same as if we added Vardy, Solanke, Moore, Ings, (Leicester's backup strikers even). Our rivals have better teams than us. They all have a few players that would really improve our team and that's the problem. We don't have any standout players right now, we have some solid ones but that's it. 

Surely you can agree on paper we have the worst team in the league? That doesn't mean we will finish 20th or that we can't finish higher it just means the odds are a bit more stacked against us. 

We lost 3-2 to both Fulham and Bournemouth I'd hardly call that overrun. However both have better teams than us. Did we compete with them last year? We got battered 4-0 at home to Fulham and also lost both times to Bournemouth?

I'm enjoying debating with you Wassy and yes, I agree on paper we have have the worse team but isn't that normal for the team that wins the play offs? The club obviously realised that and that's why the big man got his cheque book out. But even so, I'd argue that with the additions we've made we should expect that the side ought to maybe be a bit closer to the level required. Just be a bit more competitive in games perhaps?. We've had one decent performance all season and even in that game we gave the opposition ample opportunities to beat us. Whatever way you look at it, be it poor recruitment, throwing away an established side, remaining players not be up to the required level, new player unfamiliarity, naïve formations, a lot (maybe not all) of these problems lead right back to Cooper. I'd love him to put us on a brilliant display on Saturday and if he does, and he proves that Arsenal was merely a set-back on the longer road to improvement, then I'll be his biggest fan. But if we get another bad game then I think he's done.

And re Fulham and Bournemouth, have you forgotten how these teams beat us this season? We were 2-0 up against Bournemouth at HT but were lucky to be so at the time. The performance wasn't good at all despite the scroreline. Then second half we capitulated. And against Fulham we crumbled again and handed them the win. And re last season, for two thirds of the year we were better than Bournemouth and arguably the same with Fulham. We beat Fulham by the odd goal and lost to Bournemouth by a single goal. And interestingly in that Bournemouth game we came away thinking we'd conceded the game in the second half rather than them getting better. We were the better side 1st half. Familiar to this season maybe?

Likewise! You kind of making my point there, yes the odds were massively stacked against us due to being the playoff team, therefore to expect us to stay up would be optimistic. We have been competitive in all games since Leicester apart from Arsenal. I'd say we deserved to beat Liverpool (lets not forget we missed what 3 one on ones), we were the better team against Villa IMO, not so much in the other games but they were only narrow defeats or draws. I do agree that we could be more competitive, that's probably what separates us from Bournemouth/Southampton right now.

Against Bournemouth I wouldn't say we were lucky to be 2-0, not saying we played great but on the other hand, we were comfortably better than them, they had no chances until that wonder goal went in. Fulham yes I agree, we played really well last year in that second game but did also get battered in the first game so it would be unfair to ignore the first one and just count the 2nd one! You're right both Bournemouth games were pretty similar, certainly Fulham were way more consistent than us last year, you don't win the league by that far without being easily the best team. Bournemouth are 100% our target, I'm hoping they will gradually fade while we continue to improve as the benefits from consistency of selection and players understanding improves.

For me the biggest disappointment and perhaps what's set us back is none of our players have really stepped up to say they should be playing at a team in midtable or higher than that. We've not really got a star whereas last year we obviously had a number of players that were leading the team ie Brennan, Spence, Worrall, McKenna, Garner. For us to stay up (and this is regardless of manager) we are going to need at least one of MGW, Brennan, Lingard, Taiwo, Freuler or maybe a Neco/Aurier to really raise their level to that of our rivals top players. That's the challenge, perhaps all it would take is a few bigs games for one of them to break out. So far only Yates has really put in a performance that would put him above other players in his position. Unless someone remembers otherwise?

You're right Wassy, we need a few to break out and show us what they've got. I thought Awoniyi's season might take off after his Liverpool performance but it was back to normal on Sunday again. I think Aurier is beginning to show some quality and certainly looks like he cares a lot. He's looking like the best signing to me now despite the fact we got him for nothing. Maybe it's because this low block is working to his strengths I don't know but you certainly look at him and say he looks like he's got something. I'm sure he'll get taken by prem club next season. Frueler's probably a player that looks good in a good side, but he's not the type to take a game by the scruff of the neck and own it like Yates did the other week. Brennan has undoubted quality but the side's just not set up for him to excel imo. Not his fault really. Kayoute's been a decent acquisition but not sparkled. Other than that the rest have been awful. Awoniyi looks like a pub player sometimes, MGW I think has quality but again probably will be better in a better side. Its probably Lingard who's the player that needs to step up. Who knows, if he can get a couple of goals on Saturday then maybe he can take off. I'm not holding my breath though. I bet David Moyes is thinking he's dodged a bullet with Lingard this season.

[Paplane]

I don't buy that Wassy. You could put Messi and Haaland in our team and they would turn to S**t.

Nothing wrong with Henderson, Aurier, Lodi, Johnson, Freuler, Mgw and Taiwo etc except that for some reason our coach has not been able to get a tune out of them so far for whatever reason.

If we had Messi and Haaland we would not be bottom!

Those players are good not great, that's the issue. I hope Cooper and his team can coach an improvement out of them to help them reach their potential. It will take time, none of them have proven it at this level in this league except perhaps Aurier to a lesser extent (and I'd say he's been good so far, better than expected).

For me the season rests on at least one of Brennan, MGW and Lingard stepping up to the next level.

I reckon Haaland would half the player if you dropped him in our side. Messi would transform any team I think.