Thoughts On The Next Nottingham Forest Manager

[Paplane]

Maybe Dyche has been felt up by these other teams but fancies a go a certain club, maybe Leeds?

[wassy04]

We didn't have to assemble a completely new squad though. We could've retained nearly all of the loan players by signing them, given Grabban another year and retained Samba. It was a choice we made so lets not suggest we had a mass walkout of players.

Sorry Pap, but I dont agree with us retaining all of last seasons loan players. Jed made it perfectly clear to SC in January he wanted to play down south due to his family being down there and Spurs held the key to that one. We were messed about by Gerrard and Villa when they placed a ridiculous value on Keinan Davies and Man Utd held out until the last day to decide Jimmy Garners fate. I would say the only one we may have had some control over would've been Zinc and I am not sure the club felt he was consistent enough to up his game in the PL.

Samba I'm afraid wanted out and used some lame excuse to move back to his homeland. Grabban wanted one last pay day making mega bucks in the middle east. None of these decisions can be placed on the club. These were all influences outside of Forest's control.

We also had other players that were released as they certainly wouldn't have made the grade, Lolley, Bong and one or two fringe players.

Nobody knows Tricks what the circumstances were around each of the players but I'm certain if the club wanted them they would have worked a way to get them. For example, Cooper wanted MGW despite the fact he was playing for a direct rival. The club got him. Grabban probably wanted decent cash yes but we must be paying well anyway on alternatives this season. Again, a way could've been found. Samba wouldn't have left had we not gone for Henderson. Choices made by the club. And new players coming in should be replacements for the Lolleys and Bongs, and building a better squad on the foundation of last season's successful side. Its a convenient excuse to say it was out of our control.

I understand the point you are making Pap, but your point is made in hindsight. Remember back to when we signed Lingard and Henderson. These were marque signings. Fans were overwhelmed by the message and intentions the club were making. Both England internationals wanting to prove their worth and get back into Southgates reckoning. Why would we want to hang on to Zinkernagel when Jess Lingard is in the side? Why would you want to bow down to a petulant goalkeeper when you have just signed not just an England international goalkeeper, but the Welsh one also? 

I do agree that the replacement players should have been upgrades on the Bongs and Lolleys, but a lot of the new signings also had international pedigree, so were upgrades on what we had, theoretically anyway. Lodi (Brazil), Awoniyi and Dennis (Nigeria), Freuler (Switzerland), Mangala (Belgium) to name but a few. All on paper are worthy upgrades on what we had. 

The fact is that so many of our signings have international experience which should have bolstered our side considerably but the vast majority of the signings have so far underwhelmed and underperformed, which for me at least, highlights to other factors being in play resulting in our poor performances. What those factors are though, I honestly don't know.

Yep, this is really the point ive been making for a while now. If people are saying the reason for our poor season is because of the loss of the loanees then this is entirety the clubs doing. They were starstruck by the big names and thought they were upgrading massively. But the world of football thinks it was madness what we did. Did no one in the club have the foresight to realise this? Did Cooper object or was he complicit? If he was, then he's been shown to be massively nieve thinking he could integrate these new players while also achieving results in the prem.

Or, here's an alternate theory. The players we've brought in are talented individuals who should by now be comfortable playing alongside each other and Cooper is just not getting a tune out of them because he's got no top flight experience and is struggling himself to come to terms with the challenge? People just wont accept this may be a possible scenario and use the 'we had no choice but to buy' as an excuse not to address this possibility.

You probably need to let this narrative around the loan players go. Only Spence would likely be making any impact and he's not managed to threaten the Spurs team. Samba is worse than Henderson and Grabban would not be getting gametime.

The issue is simply that it is quite difficult to build a new team from scratch, the younger players we signed have yet to step up and the experienced players have not played up to the level we hoped.

That said, we've been good for the last few games barring 2nd half vs Arsenal. Hopefully we can take that into the last two games and quieten this thread down.

[wassy04]

Dyche is modern George he has done it recently. Sam is old school we all know that. It's a poor comparison.

Can't you just admit that Dyche has got a good recent record in the PL?

Big Sam got relegated one season earlier than Dyche. They were contemporary in the premier league. Dyche is younger than Sam I will admit to that but Roy Hodgson was managing a premier league team last season in his mid 70’s. Nevertheless you make a good point about Sam being old school but maybe that is our the likes of Wolves Southampton and Bournmouth see Dyche in comparison to Cooper, hence their evident reluctance to approach the former whilst he is out of work. You are also right about it only being speculation that those clubs are waiting for Cooper to become available but you must agree that all three are delaying the decision to appoint a new manager.

Completely agree, Dyche was successful yes but his style of management is now outdated and that is why no-one wants him yet. I'm sure someone will bite the bullet at some point but his Burnley team did steadily get worse. Also worth noting his team played 442 only, not many teams even carry out and out wingers these days so he'd have to change it up. Is he capable of that?

[Username]

^surprised anyone could argue with that record given his budget and the glamour of Burnley

Nobody in premier league so far seems that keen to snap him up. Bournemouth prefer a caretaker, Wolves the same and questions about the Southampton managers immediate future have been going on for weeks. They seem to be waiting for somebody other than Dyche. I wonder who that might be.

And?

[Username]

Dyche is modern George he has done it recently. Sam is old school we all know that. It's a poor comparison.

Can't you just admit that Dyche has got a good recent record in the PL?

Big Sam got relegated one season earlier than Dyche. They were contemporary in the premier league. Dyche is younger than Sam I will admit to that but Roy Hodgson was managing a premier league team last season in his mid 70’s. Nevertheless you make a good point about Sam being old school but maybe that is our the likes of Wolves Southampton and Bournmouth see Dyche in comparison to Cooper, hence their evident reluctance to approach the former whilst he is out of work. You are also right about it only being speculation that those clubs are waiting for Cooper to become available but you must agree that all three are delaying the decision to appoint a new manager.

Completely agree, Dyche was successful yes but his style of management is now outdated and that is why no-one wants him yet. I'm sure someone will bite the bullet at some point but his Burnley team did steadily get worse. Also worth noting his team played 442 only, not many teams even carry out and out wingers these days so he'd have to change it up. Is he capable of that?

How do you know that no one wants him?

He will be aware of how his brand is perceived and will want to ensure his next step is the right one. That could even be to a Championship club.

[wassy04]

Dyche is modern George he has done it recently. Sam is old school we all know that. It's a poor comparison.

Can't you just admit that Dyche has got a good recent record in the PL?

Big Sam got relegated one season earlier than Dyche. They were contemporary in the premier league. Dyche is younger than Sam I will admit to that but Roy Hodgson was managing a premier league team last season in his mid 70’s. Nevertheless you make a good point about Sam being old school but maybe that is our the likes of Wolves Southampton and Bournmouth see Dyche in comparison to Cooper, hence their evident reluctance to approach the former whilst he is out of work. You are also right about it only being speculation that those clubs are waiting for Cooper to become available but you must agree that all three are delaying the decision to appoint a new manager.

Completely agree, Dyche was successful yes but his style of management is now outdated and that is why no-one wants him yet. I'm sure someone will bite the bullet at some point but his Burnley team did steadily get worse. Also worth noting his team played 442 only, not many teams even carry out and out wingers these days so he'd have to change it up. Is he capable of that?

How do you know that no one wants him?

He will be aware of how his brand is perceived and will want to ensure his next step is the right one. That could even be to a Championship club.

Well there's not been any suggestion that he's turned down any roles as of yet so suggests no-one has showed interest in him. Speculation of course but he's not managing anyone right now!

[Paplane]

Sorry Pap, but I dont agree with us retaining all of last seasons loan players. Jed made it perfectly clear to SC in January he wanted to play down south due to his family being down there and Spurs held the key to that one. We were messed about by Gerrard and Villa when they placed a ridiculous value on Keinan Davies and Man Utd held out until the last day to decide Jimmy Garners fate. I would say the only one we may have had some control over would've been Zinc and I am not sure the club felt he was consistent enough to up his game in the PL.

Samba I'm afraid wanted out and used some lame excuse to move back to his homeland. Grabban wanted one last pay day making mega bucks in the middle east. None of these decisions can be placed on the club. These were all influences outside of Forest's control.

We also had other players that were released as they certainly wouldn't have made the grade, Lolley, Bong and one or two fringe players.

Nobody knows Tricks what the circumstances were around each of the players but I'm certain if the club wanted them they would have worked a way to get them. For example, Cooper wanted MGW despite the fact he was playing for a direct rival. The club got him. Grabban probably wanted decent cash yes but we must be paying well anyway on alternatives this season. Again, a way could've been found. Samba wouldn't have left had we not gone for Henderson. Choices made by the club. And new players coming in should be replacements for the Lolleys and Bongs, and building a better squad on the foundation of last season's successful side. Its a convenient excuse to say it was out of our control.

I understand the point you are making Pap, but your point is made in hindsight. Remember back to when we signed Lingard and Henderson. These were marque signings. Fans were overwhelmed by the message and intentions the club were making. Both England internationals wanting to prove their worth and get back into Southgates reckoning. Why would we want to hang on to Zinkernagel when Jess Lingard is in the side? Why would you want to bow down to a petulant goalkeeper when you have just signed not just an England international goalkeeper, but the Welsh one also? 

I do agree that the replacement players should have been upgrades on the Bongs and Lolleys, but a lot of the new signings also had international pedigree, so were upgrades on what we had, theoretically anyway. Lodi (Brazil), Awoniyi and Dennis (Nigeria), Freuler (Switzerland), Mangala (Belgium) to name but a few. All on paper are worthy upgrades on what we had. 

The fact is that so many of our signings have international experience which should have bolstered our side considerably but the vast majority of the signings have so far underwhelmed and underperformed, which for me at least, highlights to other factors being in play resulting in our poor performances. What those factors are though, I honestly don't know.

Yep, this is really the point ive been making for a while now. If people are saying the reason for our poor season is because of the loss of the loanees then this is entirety the clubs doing. They were starstruck by the big names and thought they were upgrading massively. But the world of football thinks it was madness what we did. Did no one in the club have the foresight to realise this? Did Cooper object or was he complicit? If he was, then he's been shown to be massively nieve thinking he could integrate these new players while also achieving results in the prem.

Or, here's an alternate theory. The players we've brought in are talented individuals who should by now be comfortable playing alongside each other and Cooper is just not getting a tune out of them because he's got no top flight experience and is struggling himself to come to terms with the challenge? People just wont accept this may be a possible scenario and use the 'we had no choice but to buy' as an excuse not to address this possibility.

You probably need to let this narrative around the loan players go. Only Spence would likely be making any impact and he's not managed to threaten the Spurs team. Samba is worse than Henderson and Grabban would not be getting gametime.

The issue is simply that it is quite difficult to build a new team from scratch, the younger players we signed have yet to step up and the experienced players have not played up to the level we hoped.

That said, we've been good for the last few games barring 2nd half vs Arsenal. Hopefully we can take that into the last two games and quieten this thread down.

Happy to let it go Wassy but it keeps being brought up as a justifications as to why the team is so poor. I'm just pointing out that the loss of those players was not an extenuating circumstance, it was entirely self created. Anyway, no more moaning from me about this. I agree with you, we've improved markedly of late bar the Arsenal game. Cooper deserves much credit for having the balls to change things and dig in. It was just what was required at the time and I applaud him for it. That's why I was so disappointed at the capitulation on Sunday as it looked like the team had learned nothing.

[Username]

Dyche is modern George he has done it recently. Sam is old school we all know that. It's a poor comparison.

Can't you just admit that Dyche has got a good recent record in the PL?

Big Sam got relegated one season earlier than Dyche. They were contemporary in the premier league. Dyche is younger than Sam I will admit to that but Roy Hodgson was managing a premier league team last season in his mid 70’s. Nevertheless you make a good point about Sam being old school but maybe that is our the likes of Wolves Southampton and Bournmouth see Dyche in comparison to Cooper, hence their evident reluctance to approach the former whilst he is out of work. You are also right about it only being speculation that those clubs are waiting for Cooper to become available but you must agree that all three are delaying the decision to appoint a new manager.

Completely agree, Dyche was successful yes but his style of management is now outdated and that is why no-one wants him yet. I'm sure someone will bite the bullet at some point but his Burnley team did steadily get worse. Also worth noting his team played 442 only, not many teams even carry out and out wingers these days so he'd have to change it up. Is he capable of that?

How do you know that no one wants him?

He will be aware of how his brand is perceived and will want to ensure his next step is the right one. That could even be to a Championship club.

Well there's not been any suggestion that he's turned down any roles as of yet so suggests no-one has showed interest in him. Speculation of course but he's not managing anyone right now!

Or it suggests that he’s not applied for them?

[wassy04]

Big Sam got relegated one season earlier than Dyche. They were contemporary in the premier league. Dyche is younger than Sam I will admit to that but Roy Hodgson was managing a premier league team last season in his mid 70’s. Nevertheless you make a good point about Sam being old school but maybe that is our the likes of Wolves Southampton and Bournmouth see Dyche in comparison to Cooper, hence their evident reluctance to approach the former whilst he is out of work. You are also right about it only being speculation that those clubs are waiting for Cooper to become available but you must agree that all three are delaying the decision to appoint a new manager.

Completely agree, Dyche was successful yes but his style of management is now outdated and that is why no-one wants him yet. I'm sure someone will bite the bullet at some point but his Burnley team did steadily get worse. Also worth noting his team played 442 only, not many teams even carry out and out wingers these days so he'd have to change it up. Is he capable of that?

How do you know that no one wants him?

He will be aware of how his brand is perceived and will want to ensure his next step is the right one. That could even be to a Championship club.

Well there's not been any suggestion that he's turned down any roles as of yet so suggests no-one has showed interest in him. Speculation of course but he's not managing anyone right now!

Or it suggests that he’s not applied for them?

If he's not applied for them then that suggests he won't apply for Forest either so why are we talking about him!?

[ozzyten10]

I’m really not very optimistic now. As much as I’ve loved coopers reign I think it’s soon over. His results have been very poor and performances worse. Liverpool was great - West Ham great but lucky. All others poor. Even Everton we lacked nous to put them to see out the game in a dull contest. Spurs performance was decent.
Our season reminds me of Bradfords season in the premiership- signed Collymore - see Lingard. Plus a load of foreigners.
There are mitigating factors and I think cooper will be a great manager. This is his first slump he’s had really. But I am questioning his selections and more importantly His MGW obsession. We overpaid. He has been over played. He produces flashes and glimpses but nothing else. Neco Williams is another - we overpaid- he has got worse.
I am hoping this gets rammed down my throat come Saturday night and I really want it to work - as much as I wanted it to work for Pearce. But the crux is he hasn’t produced a tune from our most expensive set of players ever. Is it all his fault- no way but he has some responsibility.

[Georgecloney]

I’m really not very optimistic now. As much as I’ve loved coopers reign I think it’s soon over. His results have been very poor and performances worse. Liverpool was great - West Ham great but lucky. All others poor. Even Everton we lacked nous to put them to see out the game in a dull contest. Spurs performance was decent.
Our season reminds me of Bradfords season in the premiership- signed Collymore - see Lingard. Plus a load of foreigners.
There are mitigating factors and I think cooper will be a great manager. This is his first slump he’s had really. But I am questioning his selections and more importantly His MGW obsession. We overpaid. He has been over played. He produces flashes and glimpses but nothing else. Neco Williams is another - we overpaid- he has got worse.
I am hoping this gets rammed down my throat come Saturday night and I really want it to work - as much as I wanted it to work for Pearce. But the crux is he hasn’t produced a tune from our most expensive set of players ever. Is it all his fault- no way but he has some responsibility.

Some very good points but how likely is it we will get somebody else who will get more from these players. I am not convinced Dyche or Benitez would. The Arsenal game was very disappointing and a step backwards but the general trend has been for us to become more solid. Much more improvement is required especially attacking wise but I don’t think changing the manager is going to be some magic panacea. It is not surprising we are struggling. Most promoted teams get relegated from the premier league in their first season. On top of that we have a completely new squad to knit together. It is still only 13 games and in the overall scheme of things early days to judge if these players can cut it at this level. I know we dont have a lot of time but that is just the way it is. In my opinion we need to find some consistency in selection to get that in our performances. For me MGW has massive potential. He has a centre forwards physique with a midfielders stamina and a wingers first touch. It’s about gelling that talent with the players around him. I just think we just need to keep a bit of patience.

[ozzyten10]

For me MGW has massive potential. He has a centre forwards physique with a midfielders stamina and a wingers first touch.

Centre forward physique- Neil shipperly
Midfielder stamina - Gary iron lung Holt
Winger first touch- Diakharby

Sorry couldn’t resist.

Just not seeing it at the minute… he has huge potential but apart from some good set pieces - I’m not seeing a consistent threat.