What Do We Need To Strengthen To Progress?

[Woan]

Bit harsh in my opinion. Haven't seen many better players than Felipe and Danilo these past few months. Yates when he has been fully fit has been great too. Henderson is not ours.

Sniffer is right.
As to point 3, SC has already said how much he values Brennan. You also make it sound like some huge change in philosophy. It wasn't--and those 2 games were hardly a "tremendous waste." We drew at Stamford Bridge and beat Arsenal. 4 points that were essential for us to stay up.
And btw, MGW distributes the ball just fine.

As happy as I am that Forest is staying up (I've been a fan since the beginning of the Clough days - so I've suffered the long journey through the wilderness), I can still tell the difference between success via luck against the odds versus strategy that creates better odds.  If you don't know how lucky we were to get the results we got against Chelsea and Arsenal, I don't know what to tell you.  Do you really expect to continue to get those same results playing the same way next year - against all odds?

If you have only 3 elite outfield players (BJ, Awoniyi, MGW), and you choose a lineup that can only accommodate 2 of them on the pitch at once, you are wasting your resources, especially if the one you are utlizing the least is the most talented of the 3.

Look at the extremely low possession time of BJ and Awoniyi over the course of the entire season.  Simply put, they get very little service.  In most games, it was MGW's task to get them (or whoever else was in at striker) the ball.  He wasn't very good at it.  Also, MGW was taking the free kicks that were to be placed into the box.  Look at the very low success of those fixed pieces.  Even SC knew MGW was not doing well.  That's why he let Shelvey have a go at taking those free kicks.  Despite Shelvey's other shortcomings, he was actually pretty good at it.

A fair evaluation of MGW is that he is a good shooter, extremely fit (but not particularly fast), and keeps a cool head on penalties.  However, what he isn't is:  a) a deft passer who unlocks forwards for scoring opportunites, b) an accurate taker of free kicks, or c) a player who will win many balls in the air.   Fortunately, he is good enough at his strengths to be an elite outside attacking midfielder.  But he doesn't fit the bill of central ball distributor.  Wearing a 10 doesn't make you a 10.

He literally got an assist by unlocking the forward in the last game that got us a victory! Also, why do you keep saying he's good at shooting. It's literally been the weakest part of his game at Forest and possibly the thing that may hold him back from being a top 6 player. Hopefully for us it's something that he develops next year and I'm pretty confident he will do particularly if we get more opportunities. However, to suggest he's great at shooting now is just a bit weird.

Have a look at that assist again.  First, it is a horrible unforced giveaway that puts the ball on MGW's foot.  He waits slightly too long to move the ball to Awoniyi and MGW slightly mishits the pass.  As a result, the defender actually gets to the ball before Awoniyi, but Lady Luck intervenes.  The defender sandwiches the ball off Awoniyi's lower shin in such a way that it pops just over the goaltender.  That was NOT an elite pass by a number 10.

As to his shooting, nothing weird here at all.  He manages to hit nearly all of his shots with power, move defenders into awkward defending positions,  and keep the ball well below the bar.  As a result, he's scored, as well as produced useful deflections, corners and general chaos within the opposing box.   I think his confidence in his shooting has shown up in his penalties.  He knows the ball is going where he is trying to put it, so he can focus on deceiving the keeper.  If you can rewatch the last 10 games and focus just on his shots, I think you will see what I mean.  Interestingly, his most notable "poor" shot is when he broke right in on Arsenal and attempted to score from the 6 yard box, but pulled it wide.  I'd say that shot was out of his wheelhouse because it was less about power and more about finding a very tiny gap (which he didn't).  That actually just supports my argument that he's not really a forward.  He's an attacking midfielder who should be shooting from the edge of the box.

In my previous post I said Johnson on the bench is not a change in philosophy, it's what SC needed to do--AND IT WORKED.
Of course you say it was just luck. There's no helping you. No matter what SC does, if it works, it's just luck. When you make statements like that you take away all of your credibility.
Wassy points out that MGW literally did exactly what you said he couldn't against Arsenal and you said he mishits it. How about that beautiful flick to Danilo against Southampton? I suppose that will be discounted as well. Who knows? Maybe it was just "luck."

[JoeWorrallsBrain]

Sniffer is right.
As to point 3, SC has already said how much he values Brennan. You also make it sound like some huge change in philosophy. It wasn't--and those 2 games were hardly a "tremendous waste." We drew at Stamford Bridge and beat Arsenal. 4 points that were essential for us to stay up.
And btw, MGW distributes the ball just fine.

As happy as I am that Forest is staying up (I've been a fan since the beginning of the Clough days - so I've suffered the long journey through the wilderness), I can still tell the difference between success via luck against the odds versus strategy that creates better odds.  If you don't know how lucky we were to get the results we got against Chelsea and Arsenal, I don't know what to tell you.  Do you really expect to continue to get those same results playing the same way next year - against all odds?

If you have only 3 elite outfield players (BJ, Awoniyi, MGW), and you choose a lineup that can only accommodate 2 of them on the pitch at once, you are wasting your resources, especially if the one you are utlizing the least is the most talented of the 3.

Look at the extremely low possession time of BJ and Awoniyi over the course of the entire season.  Simply put, they get very little service.  In most games, it was MGW's task to get them (or whoever else was in at striker) the ball.  He wasn't very good at it.  Also, MGW was taking the free kicks that were to be placed into the box.  Look at the very low success of those fixed pieces.  Even SC knew MGW was not doing well.  That's why he let Shelvey have a go at taking those free kicks.  Despite Shelvey's other shortcomings, he was actually pretty good at it.

A fair evaluation of MGW is that he is a good shooter, extremely fit (but not particularly fast), and keeps a cool head on penalties.  However, what he isn't is:  a) a deft passer who unlocks forwards for scoring opportunites, b) an accurate taker of free kicks, or c) a player who will win many balls in the air.   Fortunately, he is good enough at his strengths to be an elite outside attacking midfielder.  But he doesn't fit the bill of central ball distributor.  Wearing a 10 doesn't make you a 10.

He literally got an assist by unlocking the forward in the last game that got us a victory! Also, why do you keep saying he's good at shooting. It's literally been the weakest part of his game at Forest and possibly the thing that may hold him back from being a top 6 player. Hopefully for us it's something that he develops next year and I'm pretty confident he will do particularly if we get more opportunities. However, to suggest he's great at shooting now is just a bit weird.

Have a look at that assist again.  First, it is a horrible unforced giveaway that puts the ball on MGW's foot.  He waits slightly too long to move the ball to Awoniyi and MGW slightly mishits the pass.  As a result, the defender actually gets to the ball before Awoniyi, but Lady Luck intervenes.  The defender sandwiches the ball off Awoniyi's lower shin in such a way that it pops just over the goaltender.  That was NOT an elite pass by a number 10.

As to his shooting, nothing weird here at all.  He manages to hit nearly all of his shots with power, move defenders into awkward defending positions,  and keep the ball well below the bar.  As a result, he's scored, as well as produced useful deflections, corners and general chaos within the opposing box.   I think his confidence in his shooting has shown up in his penalties.  He knows the ball is going where he is trying to put it, so he can focus on deceiving the keeper.  If you can rewatch the last 10 games and focus just on his shots, I think you will see what I mean.  Interestingly, his most notable "poor" shot is when he broke right in on Arsenal and attempted to score from the 6 yard box, but pulled it wide.  I'd say that shot was out of his wheelhouse because it was less about power and more about finding a very tiny gap (which he didn't).  That actually just supports my argument that he's not really a forward.  He's an attacking midfielder who should be shooting from the edge of the box.

In my  previous post I said Johnson on the bench is not a change in philosophy, it's what SC needed to do--AND IT WORKED.
Of course you say it was just luck. There's no helping you. No matter what SC does, if it works, it's just luck. When you make statements like that you take away all of your credibility.
Wassy points out that MGW literally did exactly what you said he couldn't against Arsenal and you said he mishits it. How about that beautiful flick to Danilo against Southampton? I suppose that will be discounted as well. Who knows? Maybe it was just "luck."

When you adopt a tactic once, twice or three times, and you win/draw each time - the results of those games don't prove that your tactics improved your odds of success.  A player could close his eyes just before kicking a penalty and still score, but no one would argue that closing his eyes improved his chance of scoring.  Show me an entire season of hanging deep and surrendering 80% of possession and I'll show you a team that will have to fight to avoid relegation.  The larger data set will show that you will lose more often than you will win with these tactics - unless you couldn't muster any more offence even if you adopted different tactics.  SC couldn't claim that, with Johnson sitting on his bench.

Not that it matters, but MGW's flick to Danilo against Southampton was:  a) more of a dummy than a pass, and b) dangerous, compared to leaving the ball altogether (White's unnecessary touch could have just as easily put Danilo out of position or upset his timing - the better decision was to have let the ball run to Danilo).   A better pass was was MGW's 40 yard pass to Awoniyi against Palace, but there are a few things worth noting about it:  1) MGW was playing on the left.  He didn't trust his left foot to make that pass so he played it off the outside of his right - 40 yards (do I need to say how low the odds were of connecting that pass?), 2) he was 30 yards behind Awoniyi on the pitch (demonstrating that his natural and most effective positioning is in the midfield, not forward), and 3) after connecting on that pass, he gave the ball away on numerous subsequent passing opportunities.  This one extremely unlikely pass only looks as good as it does because Awoniyi made an even more remarkable play to score (none of which was luck).  What you want from your ball distributor is consistent advancement of the ball to your forwards, and very few turnovers, not just one lucky, long range, off the outside of the boot distribution per game.

[Tricky]

As happy as I am that Forest is staying up (I've been a fan since the beginning of the Clough days - so I've suffered the long journey through the wilderness), I can still tell the difference between success via luck against the odds versus strategy that creates better odds.  If you don't know how lucky we were to get the results we got against Chelsea and Arsenal, I don't know what to tell you.  Do you really expect to continue to get those same results playing the same way next year - against all odds?

If you have only 3 elite outfield players (BJ, Awoniyi, MGW), and you choose a lineup that can only accommodate 2 of them on the pitch at once, you are wasting your resources, especially if the one you are utlizing the least is the most talented of the 3.

Look at the extremely low possession time of BJ and Awoniyi over the course of the entire season.  Simply put, they get very little service.  In most games, it was MGW's task to get them (or whoever else was in at striker) the ball.  He wasn't very good at it.  Also, MGW was taking the free kicks that were to be placed into the box.  Look at the very low success of those fixed pieces.  Even SC knew MGW was not doing well.  That's why he let Shelvey have a go at taking those free kicks.  Despite Shelvey's other shortcomings, he was actually pretty good at it.

A fair evaluation of MGW is that he is a good shooter, extremely fit (but not particularly fast), and keeps a cool head on penalties.  However, what he isn't is:  a) a deft passer who unlocks forwards for scoring opportunites, b) an accurate taker of free kicks, or c) a player who will win many balls in the air.   Fortunately, he is good enough at his strengths to be an elite outside attacking midfielder.  But he doesn't fit the bill of central ball distributor.  Wearing a 10 doesn't make you a 10.

He literally got an assist by unlocking the forward in the last game that got us a victory! Also, why do you keep saying he's good at shooting. It's literally been the weakest part of his game at Forest and possibly the thing that may hold him back from being a top 6 player. Hopefully for us it's something that he develops next year and I'm pretty confident he will do particularly if we get more opportunities. However, to suggest he's great at shooting now is just a bit weird.

Have a look at that assist again.  First, it is a horrible unforced giveaway that puts the ball on MGW's foot.  He waits slightly too long to move the ball to Awoniyi and MGW slightly mishits the pass.  As a result, the defender actually gets to the ball before Awoniyi, but Lady Luck intervenes.  The defender sandwiches the ball off Awoniyi's lower shin in such a way that it pops just over the goaltender.  That was NOT an elite pass by a number 10.

As to his shooting, nothing weird here at all.  He manages to hit nearly all of his shots with power, move defenders into awkward defending positions,  and keep the ball well below the bar.  As a result, he's scored, as well as produced useful deflections, corners and general chaos within the opposing box.   I think his confidence in his shooting has shown up in his penalties.  He knows the ball is going where he is trying to put it, so he can focus on deceiving the keeper.  If you can rewatch the last 10 games and focus just on his shots, I think you will see what I mean.  Interestingly, his most notable "poor" shot is when he broke right in on Arsenal and attempted to score from the 6 yard box, but pulled it wide.  I'd say that shot was out of his wheelhouse because it was less about power and more about finding a very tiny gap (which he didn't).  That actually just supports my argument that he's not really a forward.  He's an attacking midfielder who should be shooting from the edge of the box.

In my  previous post I said Johnson on the bench is not a change in philosophy, it's what SC needed to do--AND IT WORKED.
Of course you say it was just luck. There's no helping you. No matter what SC does, if it works, it's just luck. When you make statements like that you take away all of your credibility.
Wassy points out that MGW literally did exactly what you said he couldn't against Arsenal and you said he mishits it. How about that beautiful flick to Danilo against Southampton? I suppose that will be discounted as well. Who knows? Maybe it was just "luck."

When you adopt a tactic once, twice or three times, and you win/draw each time - the results of those games don't prove that your tactics improved your odds of success.  A player could close his eyes just before kicking a penalty and still score, but no one would argue that closing his eyes improved his chance of scoring.  Show me an entire season of hanging deep and surrendering 80% of possession and I'll show you a team that will have to fight to avoid relegation.  The larger data set will show that you will lose more often than you will win with these tactics - unless you couldn't muster any more offence even if you adopted different tactics.  SC couldn't claim that, with Johnson sitting on his bench.

Not that it matters, but MGW's flick to Danilo against Southampton was:  a) more of a dummy than a pass, and b) dangerous, compared to leaving the ball altogether (White's unnecessary touch could have just as easily put Danilo out of position or upset his timing - the better decision was to have let the ball run to Danilo).   A better pass was was MGW's 40 yards pass to Awoniyi against Palace, but there are a few things worth noting about it:  1) MGW was playing on the left.  He didn't trust his left foot to make that pass so he played it off the outside of his right - 40 yards (do I need to say how low the odds were of connecting that pass?), 2) he was 30 yards behind Awoniyi on the pitch (demonstrating that his natural and most effective positioning is in the midfield, not forward), and 3) after connecting on that pass, he gave the ball away on numerous subsequent passing opportunities.  This one extremely unlikely pass only looks as good as it does because Awoniyi made an even more remarkable play to score (none of which was luck).  What you want from your ball distributor is consistent advancement of the ball to your forwards, and very few turnovers, not just one lucky, long range, of the outside of the boot distribution per game.

Jesus Christ!!! If this is what you come out with after we have just secured our Premier League status for next season, I dread to think what you would be spouting if we had got relegated!!!  :Violin:

[JoeWorrallsBrain]

He literally got an assist by unlocking the forward in the last game that got us a victory! Also, why do you keep saying he's good at shooting. It's literally been the weakest part of his game at Forest and possibly the thing that may hold him back from being a top 6 player. Hopefully for us it's something that he develops next year and I'm pretty confident he will do particularly if we get more opportunities. However, to suggest he's great at shooting now is just a bit weird.

Have a look at that assist again.  First, it is a horrible unforced giveaway that puts the ball on MGW's foot.  He waits slightly too long to move the ball to Awoniyi and MGW slightly mishits the pass.  As a result, the defender actually gets to the ball before Awoniyi, but Lady Luck intervenes.  The defender sandwiches the ball off Awoniyi's lower shin in such a way that it pops just over the goaltender.  That was NOT an elite pass by a number 10.

As to his shooting, nothing weird here at all.  He manages to hit nearly all of his shots with power, move defenders into awkward defending positions,  and keep the ball well below the bar.  As a result, he's scored, as well as produced useful deflections, corners and general chaos within the opposing box.   I think his confidence in his shooting has shown up in his penalties.  He knows the ball is going where he is trying to put it, so he can focus on deceiving the keeper.  If you can rewatch the last 10 games and focus just on his shots, I think you will see what I mean.  Interestingly, his most notable "poor" shot is when he broke right in on Arsenal and attempted to score from the 6 yard box, but pulled it wide.  I'd say that shot was out of his wheelhouse because it was less about power and more about finding a very tiny gap (which he didn't).  That actually just supports my argument that he's not really a forward.  He's an attacking midfielder who should be shooting from the edge of the box.

In my  previous post I said Johnson on the bench is not a change in philosophy, it's what SC needed to do--AND IT WORKED.
Of course you say it was just luck. There's no helping you. No matter what SC does, if it works, it's just luck. When you make statements like that you take away all of your credibility.
Wassy points out that MGW literally did exactly what you said he couldn't against Arsenal and you said he mishits it. How about that beautiful flick to Danilo against Southampton? I suppose that will be discounted as well. Who knows? Maybe it was just "luck."

When you adopt a tactic once, twice or three times, and you win/draw each time - the results of those games don't prove that your tactics improved your odds of success.  A player could close his eyes just before kicking a penalty and still score, but no one would argue that closing his eyes improved his chance of scoring.  Show me an entire season of hanging deep and surrendering 80% of possession and I'll show you a team that will have to fight to avoid relegation.  The larger data set will show that you will lose more often than you will win with these tactics - unless you couldn't muster any more offence even if you adopted different tactics.  SC couldn't claim that, with Johnson sitting on his bench.

Not that it matters, but MGW's flick to Danilo against Southampton was:  a) more of a dummy than a pass, and b) dangerous, compared to leaving the ball altogether (White's unnecessary touch could have just as easily put Danilo out of position or upset his timing - the better decision was to have let the ball run to Danilo).   A better pass was was MGW's 40 yards pass to Awoniyi against Palace, but there are a few things worth noting about it:  1) MGW was playing on the left.  He didn't trust his left foot to make that pass so he played it off the outside of his right - 40 yards (do I need to say how low the odds were of connecting that pass?), 2) he was 30 yards behind Awoniyi on the pitch (demonstrating that his natural and most effective positioning is in the midfield, not forward), and 3) after connecting on that pass, he gave the ball away on numerous subsequent passing opportunities.  This one extremely unlikely pass only looks as good as it does because Awoniyi made an even more remarkable play to score (none of which was luck).  What you want from your ball distributor is consistent advancement of the ball to your forwards, and very few turnovers, not just one lucky, long range, of the outside of the boot distribution per game.

Jesus Christ!!! If this is what you come out with after we have just secured our Premier League status for next season, I dread to think what you would be spouting if we had got relegated!!!  :Violin:

This is a thread about how to get better next season.  I'm sure there are other threads to simply enjoy surviving relegation.  I was responding to another poster who was debating my suggestions on how to improve.  MY suggestions had to do with SC's tactics and putting MGW into a (slightly) different role.  Not sure what you were expecting to read when you clicked on this thread.

[stefanduma]

Bit harsh in my opinion. Haven't seen many better players than Felipe and Danilo these past few months. Yates when he has been fully fit has been great too. Henderson is not ours.

Sniffer is right.
As to point 3, SC has already said how much he values Brennan. You also make it sound like some huge change in philosophy. It wasn't--and those 2 games were hardly a "tremendous waste." We drew at Stamford Bridge and beat Arsenal. 4 points that were essential for us to stay up.
And btw, MGW distributes the ball just fine.

As happy as I am that Forest is staying up (I've been a fan since the beginning of the Clough days - so I've suffered the long journey through the wilderness), I can still tell the difference between success via luck against the odds versus strategy that creates better odds.  If you don't know how lucky we were to get the results we got against Chelsea and Arsenal, I don't know what to tell you.  Do you really expect to continue to get those same results playing the same way next year - against all odds?

If you have only 3 elite outfield players (BJ, Awoniyi, MGW), and you choose a lineup that can only accommodate 2 of them on the pitch at once, you are wasting your resources, especially if the one you are utlizing the least is the most talented of the 3.

Look at the extremely low possession time of BJ and Awoniyi over the course of the entire season.  Simply put, they get very little service.  In most games, it was MGW's task to get them (or whoever else was in at striker) the ball.  He wasn't very good at it.  Also, MGW was taking the free kicks that were to be placed into the box.  Look at the very low success of those fixed pieces.  Even SC knew MGW was not doing well.  That's why he let Shelvey have a go at taking those free kicks.  Despite Shelvey's other shortcomings, he was actually pretty good at it.

A fair evaluation of MGW is that he is a good shooter, extremely fit (but not particularly fast), and keeps a cool head on penalties.  However, what he isn't is:  a) a deft passer who unlocks forwards for scoring opportunites, b) an accurate taker of free kicks, or c) a player who will win many balls in the air.   Fortunately, he is good enough at his strengths to be an elite outside attacking midfielder.  But he doesn't fit the bill of central ball distributor.  Wearing a 10 doesn't make you a 10.

He literally got an assist by unlocking the forward in the last game that got us a victory! Also, why do you keep saying he's good at shooting. It's literally been the weakest part of his game at Forest and possibly the thing that may hold him back from being a top 6 player. Hopefully for us it's something that he develops next year and I'm pretty confident he will do particularly if we get more opportunities. However, to suggest he's great at shooting now is just a bit weird.

Have a look at that assist again.  First, it is a horrible unforced giveaway that puts the ball on MGW's foot.  He waits slightly too long to move the ball to Awoniyi and MGW slightly mishits the pass.  As a result, the defender actually gets to the ball before Awoniyi, but Lady Luck intervenes.  The defender sandwiches the ball off Awoniyi's lower shin in such a way that it pops just over the goaltender.  That was NOT an elite pass by a number 10.

As to his shooting, nothing weird here at all.  He manages to hit nearly all of his shots with power, move defenders into awkward defending positions,  and keep the ball well below the bar.  As a result, he's scored, as well as produced useful deflections, corners and general chaos within the opposing box.   I think his confidence in his shooting has shown up in his penalties.  He knows the ball is going where he is trying to put it, so he can focus on deceiving the keeper.  If you can rewatch the last 10 games and focus just on his shots, I think you will see what I mean.  Interestingly, his most notable "poor" shot is when he broke right in on Arsenal and attempted to score from the 6 yard box, but pulled it wide.  I'd say that shot was out of his wheelhouse because it was less about power and more about finding a very tiny gap (which he didn't).  That actually just supports my argument that he's not really a forward.  He's an attacking midfielder who should be shooting from the edge of the box.

It's simple we replace Steve Cooper with JoeWorrallsBrain, and all our problems will disappear. Champions League qualifier next year and lift our third European Cup the year after.  

I just can't wait, Mr Marinakis are you listening!!!!!!!

[oh no]

Not that it matters, but MGW's flick to Danilo against Southampton was:  a) more of a dummy than a pass, and b) dangerous, compared to leaving the ball altogether (White's unnecessary touch could have just as easily put Danilo out of position or upset his timing - the better decision was to have let the ball run to Danilo).   A better pass was was MGW's 40 yards pass to Awoniyi against Palace, but there are a few things worth noting about it:  1) MGW was playing on the left.  He didn't trust his left foot to make that pass so he played it off the outside of his right - 40 yards (do I need to say how low the odds were of connecting that pass?), 2) he was 30 yards behind Awoniyi on the pitch (demonstrating that his natural and most effective positioning is in the midfield, not forward), and 3) after connecting on that pass, he gave the ball away on numerous subsequent passing opportunities.  This one extremely unlikely pass only looks as good as it does because Awoniyi made an even more remarkable play to score (none of which was luck).  What you want from your ball distributor is consistent advancement of the ball to your forwards, and very few turnovers, not just one lucky, long range, of the outside of the boot distribution per game.

1) MGW was playing on the left. 
This is how all modern football teams work. Right footer on the left with room to drift. MGW has pulled these passes off dozens of times this season and did it tons for Sheff Utd last year. I think you're reading his skillset wrong. His left foot isnt a weakness, instead the outside boot pass is a strength.

2) he was 30 yards behind Awoniyi on the pitch
Pretty sure this is part of our plan. Taiwo isnt great at the build up side of things and MGW isnt a run in behind type of player. Having this gap gives Taiwo room to run and also MGW room to create.

3) after connecting on that pass, he gave the ball away on numerous subsequent passing opportunities
This is what Cooper calls a positive mistake. Try to make things happen and its again part of our gameplan. We went from averaging a dozen 10+ pass moves per game to 3 or 4, and look how much more threatening we are because of it. 

Basically stop looking at players making mistakes as problems with the player, but instead look at us giving the ball away as trying to make something happen. Sure we arent playing like Man City, but we also arent playing like 2011 Stoke, as you're making out. What we play is high risk but also high reward, we're never going to be able to play low risk but also devestating counters unless we spend £1bn like the elite clubs have.

[Tricky]

Have a look at that assist again.  First, it is a horrible unforced giveaway that puts the ball on MGW's foot.  He waits slightly too long to move the ball to Awoniyi and MGW slightly mishits the pass.  As a result, the defender actually gets to the ball before Awoniyi, but Lady Luck intervenes.  The defender sandwiches the ball off Awoniyi's lower shin in such a way that it pops just over the goaltender.  That was NOT an elite pass by a number 10.

As to his shooting, nothing weird here at all.  He manages to hit nearly all of his shots with power, move defenders into awkward defending positions,  and keep the ball well below the bar.  As a result, he's scored, as well as produced useful deflections, corners and general chaos within the opposing box.   I think his confidence in his shooting has shown up in his penalties.  He knows the ball is going where he is trying to put it, so he can focus on deceiving the keeper.  If you can rewatch the last 10 games and focus just on his shots, I think you will see what I mean.  Interestingly, his most notable "poor" shot is when he broke right in on Arsenal and attempted to score from the 6 yard box, but pulled it wide.  I'd say that shot was out of his wheelhouse because it was less about power and more about finding a very tiny gap (which he didn't).  That actually just supports my argument that he's not really a forward.  He's an attacking midfielder who should be shooting from the edge of the box.

In my  previous post I said Johnson on the bench is not a change in philosophy, it's what SC needed to do--AND IT WORKED.
Of course you say it was just luck. There's no helping you. No matter what SC does, if it works, it's just luck. When you make statements like that you take away all of your credibility.
Wassy points out that MGW literally did exactly what you said he couldn't against Arsenal and you said he mishits it. How about that beautiful flick to Danilo against Southampton? I suppose that will be discounted as well. Who knows? Maybe it was just "luck."

When you adopt a tactic once, twice or three times, and you win/draw each time - the results of those games don't prove that your tactics improved your odds of success.  A player could close his eyes just before kicking a penalty and still score, but no one would argue that closing his eyes improved his chance of scoring.  Show me an entire season of hanging deep and surrendering 80% of possession and I'll show you a team that will have to fight to avoid relegation.  The larger data set will show that you will lose more often than you will win with these tactics - unless you couldn't muster any more offence even if you adopted different tactics.  SC couldn't claim that, with Johnson sitting on his bench.

Not that it matters, but MGW's flick to Danilo against Southampton was:  a) more of a dummy than a pass, and b) dangerous, compared to leaving the ball altogether (White's unnecessary touch could have just as easily put Danilo out of position or upset his timing - the better decision was to have let the ball run to Danilo).   A better pass was was MGW's 40 yards pass to Awoniyi against Palace, but there are a few things worth noting about it:  1) MGW was playing on the left.  He didn't trust his left foot to make that pass so he played it off the outside of his right - 40 yards (do I need to say how low the odds were of connecting that pass?), 2) he was 30 yards behind Awoniyi on the pitch (demonstrating that his natural and most effective positioning is in the midfield, not forward), and 3) after connecting on that pass, he gave the ball away on numerous subsequent passing opportunities.  This one extremely unlikely pass only looks as good as it does because Awoniyi made an even more remarkable play to score (none of which was luck).  What you want from your ball distributor is consistent advancement of the ball to your forwards, and very few turnovers, not just one lucky, long range, of the outside of the boot distribution per game.

Jesus Christ!!! If this is what you come out with after we have just secured our Premier League status for next season, I dread to think what you would be spouting if we had got relegated!!!  :Violin:

This is a thread about how to get better next season.  I'm sure there are other threads to simply enjoy surviving relegation.  I was responding to another poster who was debating my suggestions on how to improve.  MY suggestions had to do with SC's tactics and putting MGW into a (slightly) different role.  Not sure what you were expecting to read when you clicked on this thread.

I'm sorry but that's BS and I make no apologies for saying that!! What you stated above doesn't look anything like suggesting SC using different tactics. It looks more like you totally dismissing an excellent move that resulted in a fantastic goal for Danilo and a much needed home win against a top 8 side.

I wasn't expecting to read negative comments about our player of the season when I came on this thread, which is effectively what you have done. 

The thread is what do we need to do to strengthen for next season, but you go on a tirade about a flick from MGW which was an assist for a goal!

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

For me progression would be to have a settled team behind the scenes and upstairs with everyone singing from the same hymn sheet.

[Tricky]

For me progression would be to have a settled team behind the scenes and upstairs with everyone singing from the same hymn sheet.

Fully agree with that Sniff. Not only settled, but maybe a bit more PL experience too!!

[zicorice]

In my  previous post I said Johnson on the bench is not a change in philosophy, it's what SC needed to do--AND IT WORKED.
Of course you say it was just luck. There's no helping you. No matter what SC does, if it works, it's just luck. When you make statements like that you take away all of your credibility.
Wassy points out that MGW literally did exactly what you said he couldn't against Arsenal and you said he mishits it. How about that beautiful flick to Danilo against Southampton? I suppose that will be discounted as well. Who knows? Maybe it was just "luck."

When you adopt a tactic once, twice or three times, and you win/draw each time - the results of those games don't prove that your tactics improved your odds of success.  A player could close his eyes just before kicking a penalty and still score, but no one would argue that closing his eyes improved his chance of scoring.  Show me an entire season of hanging deep and surrendering 80% of possession and I'll show you a team that will have to fight to avoid relegation.  The larger data set will show that you will lose more often than you will win with these tactics - unless you couldn't muster any more offence even if you adopted different tactics.  SC couldn't claim that, with Johnson sitting on his bench.

Not that it matters, but MGW's flick to Danilo against Southampton was:  a) more of a dummy than a pass, and b) dangerous, compared to leaving the ball altogether (White's unnecessary touch could have just as easily put Danilo out of position or upset his timing - the better decision was to have let the ball run to Danilo).   A better pass was was MGW's 40 yards pass to Awoniyi against Palace, but there are a few things worth noting about it:  1) MGW was playing on the left.  He didn't trust his left foot to make that pass so he played it off the outside of his right - 40 yards (do I need to say how low the odds were of connecting that pass?), 2) he was 30 yards behind Awoniyi on the pitch (demonstrating that his natural and most effective positioning is in the midfield, not forward), and 3) after connecting on that pass, he gave the ball away on numerous subsequent passing opportunities.  This one extremely unlikely pass only looks as good as it does because Awoniyi made an even more remarkable play to score (none of which was luck).  What you want from your ball distributor is consistent advancement of the ball to your forwards, and very few turnovers, not just one lucky, long range, of the outside of the boot distribution per game.

Jesus Christ!!! If this is what you come out with after we have just secured our Premier League status for next season, I dread to think what you would be spouting if we had got relegated!!!  :Violin:

This is a thread about how to get better next season.  I'm sure there are other threads to simply enjoy surviving relegation.  I was responding to another poster who was debating my suggestions on how to improve.  MY suggestions had to do with SC's tactics and putting MGW into a (slightly) different role.  Not sure what you were expecting to read when you clicked on this thread.

I'm sorry but that's BS and I make no apologies for saying that!! What you stated above doesn't look anything like suggesting SC using different tactics. It looks more like you totally dismissing an excellent move that resulted in a fantastic goal for Danilo and a much needed home win against a top 8 side.

I wasn't expecting to read negative comments about our player of the season when I came on this thread, which is effectively what you have done. 

The thread is what do we need to do to strengthen for next season, but you go on a tirade about a flick from MGW which was an assist for a goal!

Weirdly  some of what this guy is saying has a bit of substance, but has to be given context. MGW is a player who is high risk high reward, he does lose the ball a fair bit and doesn't always trust his left foot, and at the time I momentarily thought he'd slightly overhit pass v Arsenal,  until Taiwo scored...BUT he gets it right often enough to have won our player of the year. Plus he absolutely works his nuts off, so can never be classed as a luxury player. He is also young and will get even better.  I would say that's one position not worth trying to strengthen.

MGW is one to build the team around. I confess I was a bit unsure early on as he seemed to always be a "nearly" man. Nearly a great pass, nearly a great goal etc.. but he has powered down the home straight to help get us safe and hasca bright future.

He also seems to love being here.

[DR Forest]

Here’s my roll of the dice and some UNRESEARCHED suggestions meant as examples plucked from previous click bait, possible relegation raiding, and one episode of MOTD.

I am not suggesting we sign them all; they are just to illustrate there are options out there for different prices and different reasons. I am also assuming several departures recouping significant funds to help finance this eg dennis and freuler. It’s just for fun debate not dissection, and the transfer values are just my guesstimates!

I think we need 7 players: Goalie, LB, RB, CB, CM, CF, LW/LAM

Options: Goalkeeper
Henderson £20m
Livakovik £15-20m

Fullbacks
Spence £15-£20m RB
Walker-Peters £10-20m LB/RB
Justin £5-15m LB/RB
Lodi £15-£20m LB
Lewis Hall loan (LTB?) LB/LM
Richards £0 it’s like a new signing!

CB
Mavropanos £10m
Omobamidele £10-20m

CM
Coulibali £10m
Gagliardini £free
Zaniolo £25-30m

LW/LAM
Gnonto £15-20m
Harvey Barnes £25m
Demerai Gray £15-20m

CF
Abraham £50m
Goncalo Ramos £50m
Solanke £25-30m
Dovbyk £10-15m
Firmino £free
Vardy free?
Broja?

[wassy04]

Here’s my roll of the dice and some UNRESEARCHED suggestions meant as examples plucked from previous click bait, possible relegation raiding, and one episode of MOTD.

I am not suggesting we sign them all; they are just to illustrate there are options out there for different prices and different reasons. I am also assuming several departures recouping significant funds to help finance this eg dennis and freuler. It’s just for fun debate not dissection, and the transfer values are just my guesstimates!

I think we need 7 players: Goalie, LB, RB, CB, CM, CF, LW/LAM

Options: Goalkeeper
Henderson £20m
Livakovik £15-20m

Fullbacks
Spence £15-£20m RB
Walker-Peters £10-20m LB/RB
Justin £5-15m LB/RB
Lodi £15-£20m LB
Lewis Hall loan (LTB?) LB/LM
Richards £0 it’s like a new signing!

CB
Mavropanos £10m
Omobamidele £10-20m

CM
Coulibali £10m
Gagliardini £free
Zaniolo £25-30m

LW/LAM
Gnonto £15-20m
Harvey Barnes £25m
Demerai Gray £15-20m

CF
Abraham £50m
Goncalo Ramos £50m
Solanke £25-30m
Dovbyk £10-15m
Firminio £free
Vardy free?
Broja?

Walker-Peters is the standout of the relegated players that we could realistically target. I really hope that's one we try to make happen.