Stevie Cooper

[wassy04]

It's all gone a bit weird on here. There is a growing group of folk who are questioning Coopers decision making and tactics but now an extremely die hard set of posters who will not seem to accept that he can be questioned. I think everyone is very grateful for the fact that he was a big part of the club when we finally won promotion to the prem, but I really don't understand why some don't believe he can be questioned. And the response to him being questioned are replies of - yes we're shite, but it's because of everyone and everything else at the club, not Coops. Just find it a bit odd. In my opinion, he can be questioned. Yes, some bad luck, but he is the manager and some believe that there are some aspects he can do better and they might have had an effect in the number of points we currently sit on. Yes, EM deserves to be judged too and clearly he has made a few errors, which he continues to try to put right. Yes, the recruitment team have made some blunders....as all recruitment teams do in every league in the world! And yes, the players need to take some responsibility......we all win together, we all lose together, but actually, it is literally Cooper's job to make sure we win enough, that is his job and he has to be held to account...because it's a job.

There's also a growing number of posters that use this argument to hide behind wanting Cooper out. Me and Zico have probably been the most vocal on defending Cooper yet we've both openly admitted when he's made mistakes too. I've listed these on numerous occasions, doesn't mean I won't defend him too particularly when it's discussing things that are put of his control.

No-one at any point had said he's untouchable or made no mistakes. If you choose to ignore those comments then that's your choice. 

Your argument fell apart at the end though. Sure you're allowed to criticise but at the end you've essentially says he has to be held to account which I presume means sacked if he fails. Which essentially says that regardless of anything out of his control he should be held accountable for failing to achieve an unrealistic target.

3 teams have to go down, does that mean all three teams that go down have failed? Or can't it be simply that the other teams are good and these teams aren't quite as good, sometimes due to factors out of their control like having to build a new team or injuries to half their best players.

So the crux of it is should Cooper be punished for not winning despite the injuries and influx of new players?

You don't seem to be defending Cooper as such. You seem to supply him excuses and blame others. Why not focus on what he is doing well at the moment, try to persuade those questioning him by saying what he is doing well rather than saying about injuries etc. 

I don't think it's an unrealistic target to have kept us up, even taking into account the problems we've faced. That's the difference in our perspectives. There are some absolutely shocking clubs this year, especially Everton, Southampton and Leicester. They have also faced huge problems so our minimum target should be to stay above them....and we still might! 

Yes, the 3 teams that get relegated have failed. I think that's unquestionable and a weird thing to argue as the opposite. 

I don't actually think anyone wants 'Cooper out'. I am very much on the fence to be honest. I certainly wouldn't be upset if he's given the chance to avoid relegation for the rest of the season for sure. I wouldn't be upset if we went down and he was given the start of next season. I think he's done a great job but I also think the football is really average, it has been for a very long time, even during the latter part of the promotion season. When it matters (ie to avoid relegation or win promotion), we seem to revert to very negative tactics that aren't working anymore. So, I do also sometimes think, would someone else be able to come in and get more out of the team at the dying end of this season that might make a positive difference in keeping us up? 

Whatever happens, at the end of the season there will be hindsight applied. 

And don't picture it as 'punishment'. Seriously, he's a grown adult in a ruthless profession and I don't think he would view it that way. He's also been publicly backed twice this season against the norm. He seems like a really nice bloke, he's done a lot for the club but perhaps he needs to do more? Hard to say definitively, but watching the football there do seem to be some shortcomings, regardless of available players, that could be addressed.

Haha there are a few that have categorically demanded Cooper out.

Southampton I agree have been poor and subsequently we're comfortably ahead of them and beat them away! Leicester narrowly missed out on top 4 with basically the same team so to describe them as shocking seems a bit questionable. They've underperformed where they expected but that doesn't make them worse than us. Everton, despite their issues managed to spend 30m plus on Onana. Its not like their squad is just a bunch of free transfers and nobodys. 

I don't like the short sightedness of the profession, I think its ridiculous that managers constantly get sacked and there's no statistical evidence to back it as a good strategy, particularly this late on. I don't see why we have to follow this approach that ignores all long term planning and assigns blame to one guy over the collective. If I was an owner I would ban sackings outside the transfer windows.

Three time have to go down though. Whatever metric you want to put on it, you could create a league table based on wages, transfers, previous results, fanbase, whatever. Your performance should be judged relative to that. If you ran this at the start you'd have us 19th or 20th on almost any metric. So to sack someone for not overperforming makes no sense, when in particular he has recently overperformed fairly dramatically. 

I don't always agree with the tactics but we got blown away earlier in the year trying to attack. Whenever we've pushed the boat out we've got battered eg Newcastle. I think he's made some mistakes, I don't think these outweigh the success he's had so far or even close. Look at Leicester for why it doesn't work. Probably going down thanks to losing those two home games after sacking Rodgers. Look at West Ham, chose to stick and its paying off.

[wassy04]

Wanted to reply as this is a good debate btw, it's nice to have a proper discussion rather than just a Cooper out, the team is shite etc..

Some successes and reasons to keep him:

- The most popular manager in my lifetime, got the fans firmly behind him.
- most successful manager of my lifetime.
- Managed to completely change the team early on after unsuccessfully truing to implement the tactics from last year.
- Managed to persuade a number of top players to sign and continues to get a lot of support from existing players.
- The dressing room is still firmly with him and working hard, albeit unsuccessfully.
- Lost one home game since September and has created a tough environment for opposition at home.

[zicorice]

The real issues are these:-
1. Would we be better off if Cooper hadn't joined us and we'd got our first choice? (Currently struggling at Watford).

2. After Leicester away would we have been better off changing managers? (We were on 4 points at time,).

3. After West Ham away would we have been better off changing managers? (2 points in 6 since).

4. Are the mitigating circumstances - injuries esp- beyond anyone's control?

5. Is there some master tactician out there who could get the available players to win more games?

6. Of our recent starting line ups available, who are other clubs truly likely to be interested in?

7. Is changing the manager on this occasion the right way forward?

I know what I think. Watching opposition close up week in week out, they mostly have more cohesion and mostly - especially since injuries really kicked in - better players in key positions. Take Mings at Villa. Doesn't get too many plaudits, quite a bit of stick in fact, but what would I give to have him as our Left CB?

It's not that I don't think we have good players and at times a good side, it's just others have better players and a better side. Has Cooper made mistakes? Of course he has, but he's also got alot right and kept an inferior squad in the fight up to this point.

I could be wrong, but I think Cooper is the right guy for us. If we'd had the right guy in 99 instead of Platt, we could have bounced straight back potentially instead of spanking money on failures, crocks and the odd player who thrived after he left.  Watching my club sack manager after manager and stagger from useless bad fits one after another in the main, makes me think we are on balance of probability better off with the guy we have at least until next season begins to pan out...

[Shawoddyred]

Wanted to reply as this is a good debate btw, it's nice to have a proper discussion rather than just a Cooper out, the team is shite etc..

Some successes and reasons to keep him:

- The most popular manager in my lifetime, got the fans firmly behind him. This is true for me too....but not sure it's a reason to keep. Hughton was actually quite popular too, even up to the point when he got sacked people were saying he should be given time.  
- most successful manager of my lifetime. True for me too (in a way, I'm sure his win %age is now suffering).....but again, last years success was last year. We live in the present.
- Managed to completely change the team early on after unsuccessfully truing to implement the tactics from last year. Do agree with this. It's partly why I'm now worried he hasn't seemed to be able to do something again in recent weeks. We have had some very good opportunities in terms of opponent and game situation but now appear completely fragile and timid, which I think needs to be addressed by a manager. 
- Managed to persuade a number of top players to sign and continues to get a lot of support from existing players. Think this accolade needs to be shared around, it was well publicised that Milito in particular was important in this regard. Though, yes, people have said that players want to play for Steve. However, there do seem to have been a few fallouts....and this continued team sheet leaking would suggest there are some that aren't in support in some way, shape or form. 
- The dressing room is still firmly with him and working hard, albeit unsuccessfully. Same as above. 
- Lost one home game since September and has created a tough environment for opposition at home. True. but I would counter to say that the performances have seriously dropped off. In my opinion we've dropped off way too deep now, we need to be trying to win the ball 10 yards further up the pitch. I thought this towards the end of last season and in the playoffs too, although obviously we ultimately got to where we wanted. Not sure we're going to be so lucky this time. 

Agree! Always a chance to go downhill though  :Laugh:

Agree with some of your points, not with others....as above

[Uwantlee]

I don’t think anyone really wants cooper out. If anything we all want the same. Cooper to turn it around and we stay up.

We all know that this is a results business and no matter how much we love the man for what he has done there is an inevitable outcome to the continuation of results.

Fingers crossed we beat Man U on sun and it’s upwards from there.

[Shawoddyred]

The real issues are these:-
1. Would we be better off if Cooper hadn't joined us and we'd got our first choice? (Currently struggling at Watford). Definitely not! It just clicked last year, brilliant!

2. After Leicester away would we have been better off changing managers? (We were on 4 points at time,). No, history clearly states he did well for a period of time. btu why haven't we kicked on?

3. After West Ham away would we have been better off changing managers? (2 points in 6 since). Probably, yes. 

4. Are the mitigating circumstances - injuries esp- beyond anyone's control? You always get injuries, but we have had a ridiculous amount. Something is amiss, could be training methods, could be the surfaces we've prepared, could be the warm ups, could be the physios, could be we've bought the wrong players. I think pure bad luck is pushing it a bit too far. 

5. Is there some master tactician out there who could get the available players to win more games? I don't actually think it's that black and white. I actually think that sometimes all it takes is a change. A breath of fresh air, someone comes in and invigorates the club. It also suggests that you consider Steve to be a master tactician....I think his greatest strength is probably in man management of younger players in particular. I would not consider him a master tactician to be honest. 

6. Of our recent starting line ups available, who are other clubs truly likely to be interested in? Plenty, probably all in some way, shape or form. All clubs need something, I think all of our players would be useful to other prem clubs, depending on their needs. 

7. Is changing the manager on this occasion the right way forward? Flip a coin! I don't envy the position EM is in! The only way he can truly win is if we stay up. If he backs Steve and we stay up, perfect. If he backs Steve and we go down, buggered. If he changes and we stay up, good but there will be some folk saying Steve would have done it and want him back. If he changes and we go down....all hell breaks loose!! EM will also be thinking, and I really sympathise with this....if I do nothing and we go down, then that is definitely on me! 

I know what I think. Watching opposition close up week in week out, they mostly have more cohesion and mostly - especially since injuries really kicked in - better players in key positions. Take Mings at Villa. Doesn't get too many plaudits, quite a bit of stick in fact, but what would I give to have him as our Left CB? Obviously a good player, who I would definitely take! 

It's not that I don't think we have good players and at times a good side, it's just others have better players and a better side. Has Cooper made mistakes? Of course he has, but he's also got alot right and kept an inferior squad in the fight up to this point.

I could be wrong, but I think Cooper is the right guy for us. If we'd had the right guy in 99 instead of Platt, we could have bounced straight back potentially instead of spanking money on failures, crocks and the odd player who thrived after he left.  Watching my club sack manager after manager and stagger from useless bad fits one after another in the main, makes me think we are on balance of probability better off with the guy we have at least until next season begins to pan out...

I'll respond here, too.....

[Salvatore Matrecano]

I won’t add to it now but decent debate chaps!  :Hat:

[zicorice]

The real issues are these:-
1. Would we be better off if Cooper hadn't joined us and we'd got our first choice? (Currently struggling at Watford). Definitely not! It just clicked last year, brilliant!

2. After Leicester away would we have been better off changing managers? (We were on 4 points at time,). No, history clearly states he did well for a period of time. btu why haven't we kicked on?

3. After West Ham away would we have been better off changing managers? (2 points in 6 since). Probably, yes. 

4. Are the mitigating circumstances - injuries esp- beyond anyone's control? You always get injuries, but we have had a ridiculous amount. Something is amiss, could be training methods, could be the surfaces we've prepared, could be the warm ups, could be the physios, could be we've bought the wrong players. I think pure bad luck is pushing it a bit too far. 

5. Is there some master tactician out there who could get the available players to win more games? I don't actually think it's that black and white. I actually think that sometimes all it takes is a change. A breath of fresh air, someone comes in and invigorates the club. It also suggests that you consider Steve to be a master tactician....I think his greatest strength is probably in man management of younger players in particular. I would not consider him a master tactician to be honest. 

6. Of our recent starting line ups available, who are other clubs truly likely to be interested in? Plenty, probably all in some way, shape or form. All clubs need something, I think all of our players would be useful to other prem clubs, depending on their needs. 

7. Is changing the manager on this occasion the right way forward? Flip a coin! I don't envy the position EM is in! The only way he can truly win is if we stay up. If he backs Steve and we stay up, perfect. If he backs Steve and we go down, buggered. If he changes and we stay up, good but there will be some folk saying Steve would have done it and want him back. If he changes and we go down....all hell breaks loose!! EM will also be thinking, and I really sympathise with this....if I do nothing and we go down, then that is definitely on me! 

I know what I think. Watching opposition close up week in week out, they mostly have more cohesion and mostly - especially since injuries really kicked in - better players in key positions. Take Mings at Villa. Doesn't get too many plaudits, quite a bit of stick in fact, but what would I give to have him as our Left CB? Obviously a good player, who I would definitely take! 

It's not that I don't think we have good players and at times a good side, it's just others have better players and a better side. Has Cooper made mistakes? Of course he has, but he's also got alot right and kept an inferior squad in the fight up to this point.

I could be wrong, but I think Cooper is the right guy for us. If we'd had the right guy in 99 instead of Platt, we could have bounced straight back potentially instead of spanking money on failures, crocks and the odd player who thrived after he left.  Watching my club sack manager after manager and stagger from useless bad fits one after another in the main, makes me think we are on balance of probability better off with the guy we have at least until next season begins to pan out...

I'll respond here, too.....

My point about Mings wasn’t well made. He's an example of a steady Prem player Villa’s no 6 (Douglas is it?) being another example of which we don't go into the game thinking, it's going to be tough up against Mings, Douglas, McGinn even but in reality they are much better than what we have available. The league is crammed full of them. It's a bit frightening if you over think it. Even Southampton looked half decent at West Ham when losing 1-0 a touch unluckily.

Re injuries, I think we got off lightly last season, but this season opposite- swings and roundabouts. Take Jonnno out after Christmas and we probably wouldn't have come up for instance.

Sports Science being what it is the injuries will have little to do with methods (Aurier and Kouyate both injured on international duty too such is our bad run), though Boly and McKenna both have poor injury records before we signed them. Not sure about rest.

As regards point 6 if I were a team thst stays up and we go down  I'd look at Jonno obviously. Felipe, Aurier and maybe MGW. Yates would need to pass a medical but definitely could do a job. 
As for rest would we get money back on them? Danilo, Niakhate, Dennis  Wood, Taiwo and to a lesser extent Freuler all cost a good few quid. As you say, depends on a teams needs I guess. For instance, Everton would probably want Wood. Dennis could do a job (not for £20 million though,) at somewhere like Wolves. 

Hopefully all moot points as we manage to stay up.

[wassy04]

5. Is there some master tactician out there who could get the available players to win more games? I don't actually think it's that black and white. I actually think that sometimes all it takes is a change. A breath of fresh air, someone comes in and invigorates the club. It also suggests that you consider Steve to be a master tactician....I think his greatest strength is probably in man management of younger players in particular. I would not consider him a master tactician to be honest. 


I think the bit I wanted to dig into this bit as this argument is used a lot and I don't understand why. There is so much evidence that this isn't a thing, statistically speaking. A breath of fresh air isn't a thing. New manager bounce is usually primarily due to having just come off a tough run of fixtures (ie Palace). I'm not denying there are exceptions but that doesn't mean they prove the rule. 

Even this season alone, Everton are in the same position despite clearly upgrading to Dyche. Southampton got worse, Leicester so far have thrown their season away losing back to back winnable home games. Wolves and Leeds are marginally better off positionally, I wouldn't describe them as massively improved though, plus both had largely unsuccessful managers. Chelsea and Spurs also noticeably worse despite the sackings.

There was a graphic going round showing of all the changes March onwards, the impact on position was +1 at most and averaged out at 0. This mirage of "New Manager Bounce" is just not statistically a thing. Particularly when you include long term impact.

I would love us to stay up and be the only team not to sack a manager.

[northeastred]

Athletic confirming it was cooper who wanted woods and ayew. Giraldi got him them..

[Madforit]

Athletic confirming it was cooper who wanted woods and ayew. Giraldi got him them..

That decision will cost Cooper and if he should keep his job here any credibility to bringing in players in the summer transfer window

[Reds4eva]

Anybody think dyche has a clause in his contract if Everton go down? And we could get him?