(11-08-2021, 09:32 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: I agree Alf and particularly with the last sentence. The last word actually, expectations not just from us but from the club.

It is the expectation of promotion the same year that is always doing it and the driving force of everything we do. It is the knowledge that every manager has that he will be sacked if he is not in the top 6 (top 2 in Karanka’s case) so they have to go all in. There is no time to build a squad or develop players, why would they bother when they know they probably wont be here next season.
So what does every manager do? They bring in players they have worked with before regardless of their age, cost of contract or suitability. Again what does it matter to them but we are then stuck with the fall out and the inevitable expensive bomb squad. The one honourable exception was probably Dougie who knew he had to work on a shoestring so actually tried to develop what he had.

Breaking this cycle is so important and I hope lessons have been learned and we will do so this season.

(11-08-2021, 09:09 AM)Alf Wrote:

(11-08-2021, 08:57 AM)wassy04 Wrote:

(11-08-2021, 08:42 AM)Alf Wrote: Green Man, regards Karanka I think that serves of a good example of where you might need to adjust your expectations mate. I'm pretty confident that he could have got us up.......given the time and financial backing. And he was gonna get neither here.

That's where the club goes wrong, because it usually employs managers who methods aren't a good fit for the club. These aren't bad managers, it's usually down to the club not having due diligence to actually discuss the managers methods & vision at any real length with them before employing them. Tbh I think they do what most fans do and look at a CV, look at a win %, then after a quick interview set them on.

IMO the best manager for us is one who can cope with shitty situations, and then when luck does eventually go our way with the right cheap signings & a wave of top academy players coming through at the same time, then we can give it a proper blast. So far, I think Hughton fits that bracket.

The lack of success at the club simply can't be down to the managers we've employed. The EM era has seen us employ 3 out of 4 managers all with promotions to their name, yet we've not even made the playoffs. Never mind the numerous managers which were employed in previous eras who have all taken other clubs up. It's been the club that is the issue, and until it sorts itself out then all cycling managers does is run up a bigger bill.

Everyone needs to start seeing the manager as a place-holder until the club itself gets it's act together, especially in the transfer market.

We did have a pretty bad track record of appointments too though before Marinakis. You look back at some of the names, a lot have not carried on in management which says a lot.

Megson- not managed since
Calderwood - no longer a manager
McClaren- failed many times as a manager
Cotterill - was doing alright recently before his illness tbf, but previous journeyman record
SoD - no longer a manager
Mcleish - never seen again
Billy (part 2) - great the first time but that second spell was odd, not managed since.
Pearce - not managed since
Freedman - not managed since
Montanier - still in employment but bouncing round the French league
Warburton - still in employment! Fair play to him, he's come through a difficult spell at QPR and now is well set.
Karanka - sacked again although I was sad when he left us
MoN - not managed since
Sabri - sacked once since

Forest really is a graveyard for managerial careers. I think the above shows we have made some pretty bad choices over the last 15 years or so. Some of those were bad appointments, some not given time, some both. 

I think it does make it difficult to back managers when the recruitment of them has been so poor so I do sympathise with this viewpoint. Plus CH doesn't exactly endear himself with his style of football, although it is probably the most likely style to succeed without parachute payments. Hopefully he does not join the above graveyard

That to me just highlights how much we destroy managers careers, rather than them being bad managers. Largely because we don't back them properly.

Megson - Promotion winner
McClaren - Made the playoffs
Cotterill - wank
SOD - Not really a manager as much of a coach anyway and sacked 1pts off the playoffs. Would probably be a good fit for this setup actually.
Mcliesh - Promotion winner
Billy - Promotion winner, never finished outside the top 6 in a full season.
Pearce - Hard to judge as no recrd in the Champ other than here
Freedman - Umbongo'd. I didn't rate him, but I don't think you can be conclusive about judging a manager who didn't get 1p to spend in transfers (which incidentally is the case with Hughton at the mo too.
Monty - No champ record, done well abroad though. Bad fit, not a bad manager.
Warbs - Playoffs with Brentford (not too far off lats year ether with a vastly overperforming QPR side)
AK - Promotion winner
MON - Promotion winner
Lamouchi - Unknown apart from with us
Hughton - Promotion winner, never finished outside the top 4 in a full season.

So out of the 15 you list 6 have won promotion, 2 have made the playoffs, and 2 had the playoffs in their grasp had the top brass not shafted them.

8 out 15 managers who have done the business elsewhere, 10 out of 15 if Lamouchi & SOD had been backed.

The majority of those are good managers IMO. Yes there is some crap in there, but we've had managers here who it could have worked with. The problem has always been the club and how it's run IMO. CH has been at the club almost a year and hasn't spent 1 bean on transfers yet. Anyone expecting that to get promotion after picking us up in 22nd really needs to adjust their expectations.

(11-08-2021, 09:37 AM)Tricky Wrote:

(11-08-2021, 09:32 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: I agree Alf and particularly with the last sentence. The last word actually, expectations not just from us but from the club.

It is the expectation of promotion the same year that is always doing it and the driving force of everything we do. It is the knowledge that every manager has that he will be sacked if he is not in the top 6 (top 2 in Karanka’s case) so they have to go all in. There is no time to build a squad or develop players, why would they bother when they know they probably wont be here next season.
So what does every manager do? They bring in players they have worked with before regardless of their age, cost of contract or suitability. Again what does it matter to them but we are then stuck with the fall out and the inevitable expensive bomb squad. The one honourable exception was probably Dougie who knew he had to work on a shoestring so actually tried to develop what he had.

Breaking this cycle is so important and I hope lessons have been learned and we will do so this season.

Totally agree with that Sal. Fingers crossed Dane Murphy will break that mindset and cycle and steer the club in a new direction

(11-08-2021, 11:29 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote: Forest have made decent appointments.  But the off field running of the club hasn't been up to it.

I'm sure there were one or two who wanted Norwich's manager out in this 1st season finishing 15th.  But Norwich stuck with him.  Even when relegated from the Premiership.

We finally appoint a manager with a clear record at this level with budget Brighton and well kitted out Newcastle (both teams scoring sacks of goals...) and we've crawled to two out field signings in 3 months and fielded a team with a LB that was on the bomb squad list.

I think Forest should have got at least a draw v Cov' but the 2nd half performance and result fall squarely on off the field matters catching up with recent attempts to put together a superior recruitment team.

It's not even a year later and Hughton has 2 outfield loans to his name.  The keeper is his only permanent signing so far.

SA.

(11-08-2021, 12:16 PM)Tricky Wrote:

(11-08-2021, 11:29 AM)Strawberry Avenger Wrote: Forest have made decent appointments.  But the off field running of the club hasn't been up to it.

I'm sure there were one or two who wanted Norwich's manager out in this 1st season finishing 15th.  But Norwich stuck with him.  Even when relegated from the Premiership.

We finally appoint a manager with a clear record at this level with budget Brighton and well kitted out Newcastle (both teams scoring sacks of goals...) and we've crawled to two out field signings in 3 months and fielded a team with a LB that was on the bomb squad list.

I think Forest should have got at least a draw v Cov' but the 2nd half performance and result fall squarely on off the field matters catching up with recent attempts to put together a superior recruitment team.

It's not even a year later and Hughton has 2 outfield loans to his name.  The keeper is his only permanent signing so far.

SA.

So our 2nd half performance had nothing to do with the fact that we had to cancel our 2 remaining Pre-season friendlies due to Covid and the players started to tire from about the 60th minute? Or the fact that 2 of our regular first team players couldn't start the match due to injury/self isolating or that one of our Centre Half's got injured just before half time had nothing to do with the second half performance? 

You have constantly stated (quite rightly BTW) we need a LB, a RB a striker and an attacking CM. Would you accept any mediocre player to fill those positions? or would you want to see quality signings put in place? If the latter, these things take time. 

Were you happy with the 14 summer signings from last summer? Brought about by and large from our previous recruitment team. I'm pretty certain you wasn't happy, like any other Reds fan was. But the club have taken drastic steps to put in place a different type of recruitment team now, with different ideals and direction. The CEO has only been in place for a few weeks. Quite rightly (IMO) decisions have been put on hold until some kind of structure was implemented to start paving a way forwards. Not the mindless unthought through signings of previous years

At least give them a chance to start getting things done!

(14-08-2021, 06:46 PM)PsychoStanleyStone Wrote: still week 1, just sayin

(15-08-2021, 06:01 AM)Marinakis Red Wrote: My personal view when he arrived was I did not want him in charge in terms of style of play and approach to games, any of his interviews always focusses on the other team and stopping them, which we are not very good at by the way, rather than focusing on what we can do and making teams worry about us.

It's never an approach I'll ever like, or fully support, I'd much prefer a more positive approach that breeds confidence and trust players with their own abilities to express themselves rather than stifle development with a negative mindset that attacking players must be frustrated with, every player has defensive responsibilities on a football pitch, but let's get on the front foot and give ourselves more opportunities to score by getting more bodies forward at the right times.

That being said I'm not sure change right now is the right thing for us as a club.