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+--- Thread: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 (/showthread.php?tid=485)
RE: MON: Pros, cons & vote 2 - zicorice - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 12:59 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:35 PM)zicorice Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:13 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Early second half don’t remember exactly. Was a pretty surreal thing, I’ve not seen anyone react like that before. Would’ve been properly scared if it was Keane!
Back in the day of one or two subs, every time they warmed up (which was often under Cloughie) their name would be sung. I suppose the Carvalho thing has taken on a way more symbolic form.
As I said before though. After their 2nd goal we played really well and deserved more than just the one goal. It could be argued this was the perfect time to get him on, as once we had failed to equalise the game petered out a bit in last 20 mins. Maybe if he had come on whilst our tails were up.... ifs, buts and maybes again. Agree with Alfs sentiments though. Give MON a pre-season and some of his own players and see where it leads.
Is that stability though? Surely he’s going to completely turnover this team. Who do you think MON would keep? Feels like he’ll completely dismantle the team and then when he likely is sacked in Jan and they want someone to play nicer football they’ll do the same again. Bit cynical right now I’m afraid
Totally understandable cynicism. Isn't it 2011 season when we last had same manager for a whole season? Where did finish that season? Hierarchy since then (and dare I say an element of our "support") have to take responsibility for complete lack of patience.
I don't agree with some of what Alf posts, but I 100% agree with his points re the online community and their lets bin off SOD/Warbs/Psycho/AK and now MON. Lets not pretend it's all just online keyboard warriors either. At the ground yesterday there were some vociferous individuals giving dogs abuse to MON and some of our own players.
Is it such a bad thing if he completely dismantled the team? Hardly been world beaters over last 3 years or so. Of course I get that it depends on who he brings in and how it pans out, but more of the same as the last 12 months? No thanks.
It's funny though. Perusing other sites, there are many completely refusing to accept we played decent football for long periods yesterday. Bottom line is we lost, I get that, but it was worlds apart from Rotherham.
RE: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 - ThePromisedLand - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 02:09 PM)Duncan Mckenzie Wrote: I believe things run a bit deeper than that TPL but I will shut up now.
Spit it out Duncan.
RE: MON: Pros, cons & vote 2 - wassy04 - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 02:39 PM)zicorice Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:59 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:35 PM)zicorice Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:13 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Early second half don’t remember exactly. Was a pretty surreal thing, I’ve not seen anyone react like that before. Would’ve been properly scared if it was Keane!
Back in the day of one or two subs, every time they warmed up (which was often under Cloughie) their name would be sung. I suppose the Carvalho thing has taken on a way more symbolic form.
As I said before though. After their 2nd goal we played really well and deserved more than just the one goal. It could be argued this was the perfect time to get him on, as once we had failed to equalise the game petered out a bit in last 20 mins. Maybe if he had come on whilst our tails were up.... ifs, buts and maybes again. Agree with Alfs sentiments though. Give MON a pre-season and some of his own players and see where it leads.
Is that stability though? Surely he’s going to completely turnover this team. Who do you think MON would keep? Feels like he’ll completely dismantle the team and then when he likely is sacked in Jan and they want someone to play nicer football they’ll do the same again. Bit cynical right now I’m afraid
Totally understandable cynicism. Isn't it 2011 season when we last had same manager for a whole season? Where did finish that season? Hierarchy since then (and dare I say an element of our "support") have to take responsibility for complete lack of patience.
I don't agree with some of what Alf posts, but I 100% agree with his points re the online community and their lets bin off SOD/Warbs/Psycho/AK and now MON. Lets not pretend it's all just online keyboard warriors either. At the ground yesterday there were some vociferous individuals giving dogs abuse to MON and some of our own players.
Is it such a bad thing if he completely dismantled the team? Hardly been world beaters over last 3 years or so. Of course I get that it depends on who he brings in and how it pans out, but more of the same as the last 12 months? No thanks.
It's funny though. Perusing other sites, there are many completely refusing to accept we played decent football for long periods yesterday. Bottom line is we lost, I get that, but it was worlds apart from Rotherham.
We’ve just dismantled i , I would prefer 4/5 quality additions to complement what we have along with the academy players. Where I was sat there was still a few MON chants not too much aggression really. Only the carvalho stuff. Also I didn’t want warbs/AK/dougie out yet yesterday turned me against MON. What does that say?
Also no one wanted SOD out surely!
RE: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 - Alf Garnett - 14-04-2019
After 3 defeats in a week I have changed my vote from stick to undecided.
RE: MON: Pros, cons & vote 2 - zicorice - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 03:08 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(14-04-2019, 02:39 PM)zicorice Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:59 PM)wassy04 Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:35 PM)zicorice Wrote:(14-04-2019, 12:13 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Early second half don’t remember exactly. Was a pretty surreal thing, I’ve not seen anyone react like that before. Would’ve been properly scared if it was Keane!
Back in the day of one or two subs, every time they warmed up (which was often under Cloughie) their name would be sung. I suppose the Carvalho thing has taken on a way more symbolic form.
As I said before though. After their 2nd goal we played really well and deserved more than just the one goal. It could be argued this was the perfect time to get him on, as once we had failed to equalise the game petered out a bit in last 20 mins. Maybe if he had come on whilst our tails were up.... ifs, buts and maybes again. Agree with Alfs sentiments though. Give MON a pre-season and some of his own players and see where it leads.
Is that stability though? Surely he’s going to completely turnover this team. Who do you think MON would keep? Feels like he’ll completely dismantle the team and then when he likely is sacked in Jan and they want someone to play nicer football they’ll do the same again. Bit cynical right now I’m afraid
Totally understandable cynicism. Isn't it 2011 season when we last had same manager for a whole season? Where did finish that season? Hierarchy since then (and dare I say an element of our "support") have to take responsibility for complete lack of patience.
I don't agree with some of what Alf posts, but I 100% agree with his points re the online community and their lets bin off SOD/Warbs/Psycho/AK and now MON. Lets not pretend it's all just online keyboard warriors either. At the ground yesterday there were some vociferous individuals giving dogs abuse to MON and some of our own players.
Is it such a bad thing if he completely dismantled the team? Hardly been world beaters over last 3 years or so. Of course I get that it depends on who he brings in and how it pans out, but more of the same as the last 12 months? No thanks.
It's funny though. Perusing other sites, there are many completely refusing to accept we played decent football for long periods yesterday. Bottom line is we lost, I get that, but it was worlds apart from Rotherham.
We’ve just dismantled i , I would prefer 4/5 quality additions to complement what we have along with the academy players. Where I was sat there was still a few MON chants not too much aggression really. Only the carvalho stuff. Also I didn’t want warbs/AK/dougie out yet yesterday turned me against MON. What does that say?
Also no one wanted SOD out surely!
I agree 4/5 quality additions, but with the bloated squad we have, lots need to go. I suppose in my old school way, that is close to dismantling the squad, especially if the additions are starters.
I think yesterdays negativity started pre match when team was announced, certainly in pub we were a bit perplexed. I didn't see MON vs A block stuff, but I can understand why that would be annoying. In truth though, we actually played OK, the shooting boots clearly weren't laced up so the result went wrong. Colback at LB was a surprise, but helped us play some football out from the back. That said our defending at times was woeful and in spells we were poor, giving the ball away too easily, so I take your point.
At the time SOD was getting some stick online prior to stuffing Leeds. Ridiculed for his Sports Psychology type interviews where he talked about "the process and performance rather than results and outcomes". Similar to "fine margins" or "it is what it is/round holes square pegs" of other managers.
On another note, with TV in background...Hope Chelsea stuff The Scouse.
RE: MON: Pros, cons & vote 2 - PsychoStanleyStone - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 11:22 AM)zicorice Wrote:(14-04-2019, 10:36 AM)wassy04 Wrote: Because I heard that repeated votes is a good way to get a majority...
Seriously, the MON situation has become very divisive, fans seem to have gone into two camps although the stick camp is starting to lose members. The way I see it:
Pros:
- stability, the stats on teams that get promoted having kept a manager are very compelling and the main reason to stick I’d say.
Cons:
- style of football, we currently look terrible, it’s hard to watch.
Love the Brexit slant on this...
However, in cold light of day I would like to add the following after a 4 and a half hour journey home:-
I genuinely thought we tried to play football yesterday, at times we did look quite good and should have scored at least a couple more. Our wide players were ripping their full backs and put in a number of dangerous balls.That said, the openess of the game also helped Blackburn look decent-alongside some defensive lapses, they should have scored more too. Pants had no chance with either goal and made a double save out of the top draw-I think the debate around Steele has been put to bed this last week, albeit the debate has moved to us now needing to sign Hugo Lloris or similar.
Up front Grabs looked a bit ponderous, dwelling on the ball and ignoring Lolley again with a simple squared pass, but his effort could not be questioned, he just looks a bit like he's not quite 100% and that's all it takes at this level.
MON: Brave with his team selection, set us up to play football (2 high quality footballers at full back, good width) and for the main part we tried too. Around me the vibe was generally positive, but a few were slating MON but then moaning when the ball was played sideways or backwards rather then hoofed up the line. Carvalho still looked classy when he came on. I felt he would have come on earlier, but after they scored 2nd we had a really good spell and it made no sense to change it. Would still like to see him more though, just a joy to watch most of the time (I accept most not all).
My personal conclusion: Impossible to judge a manager on such a short period at the helm. Yesterday's football was more than half decent at times and MON is no fool and can see that we are lacking in both ability and the minerals to consistently challenge. A few astute signings and another clear out of some dead wood and we would be there or thereabouts. I genuinely think changing is pointless, we have become a bit of a laughing stock in some ways. I get the frustration of some of the "pragmatic" football we were playing, but now the winning is not really taking us anywhere and we've tried to play some football (albeit without Carvalho-arguably our best "footballer" in the pure sense of the word) and lost twice against fellow midtablers surely the question is whether the players are actually quite good enough either ability or mineralswise to kick on.
Only Cloughie could get a tune out of this lot and without a doubt, many of them would be shown the exit door. Under AK before injuries we drew alot of away games, smash and grabbed a couple which possibly glossed over where we actually are as a club.
Short answer: Stick. Let him see out his contract and reassess. Unless floundering in bottom end of table, give him time.
I'm with Zico, I couldn't see the game, like most games I can't contribute any analysis but from Zico's account, the match stats, and actually playing a 'weakened' or sort of untested type line up, experimenting etc, it was a good performance, plenty of chances
I really believe in M o N, I think this Jan to May compared to last Jan to May is more positive, we are actually building for a successful campaign next season now.
Yes around 30 signings in the last 12 months, yes a year on, but yes relatively few signs to indicate, however we play, this is anywhere near a top 6 side.
Yes a few negatives and disappointments but overall I am very happy with M o N, I would say the squad/formation will be nowhere near the strength and cohesiveness we would see at the start of the new campaign, even with what we have now, no Benlouane or Milosevic starting, others playing different positions etc, I like experimentation and created a lot of chances, i'll even take experimentation and having a nightmare because I do think M o N does learn from every kick and challenge and mistake in every game, he's seen it all before
M o N contributed to various achievements with us, NFFC including 2 European cups, he was part of what got us to the very top of world football, since then he has another 40 plus years of excellent achievement
If anyone deserves some time and patience it is M o N. We have a worse over expectation / deluded fans combo problem than any of the other teams, I would say it is a disgrace, from the wonderful night and atmosphere of the Derby game to this in a couple of months.
I can still remember Andy Reids debut, he was confident and composed but I can still hear the moans and groans of the fans around me that day, those moans and groans are the anchor dragging along the bottom of the trent and holding us back, moans and groans that get us nowhere and possibly contribute
to where we are now. The moaners and groaners probably cost us more points than anything, destroy players confidence who have barely started their careers.
We have a guy in charge who deserves more respect than virtually anyone involved in the game, the guy really is a football genius, he has everything we need and deserves the trust.
RE: MON: Pros, cons & vote 2 - Alf - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 03:08 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Also no one wanted SOD out surely!
Think it was Vital that the "SOD Of" thread was started around Nov time. Remember it well because the "Of" spelling mistake made me chuckle.
Accusations of not having enough width, giving boring interviews, "being a number 2 not a number 1", "pinging it round the back 4 then hoofing it", avoiding responsibility by claiming "everything was a process" are just a few of the things he was slated for.
We've built this rank "get rid/not good enough" culture, and we've owners who embrace it to. Until it stops we're just gonna chase our tails & pee money away in the process.
IMO giving even a mediocre manager who can't get us up a full season to cement a pro mentality at the the club will do us more good than constantly hiring & firing.
RE: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 - ozzyten10 - 14-04-2019
The fans didn't build up this season - that was the powers that be in the club who then shifted the goalposts and top 6 wasnt good enough. Sift through the interviews from AK from Nov to December and its all there. So they have to shoulder the responsibility and MON is probably just as pissed off with the tripe he has to choose from.
The results though have been awful - 3 defeats from 3 very winnable games. This has led to the perfect storm from fans including attacks on style and philosophy. If we'd shit-housed 5 one - nills in a row then no-one would be moaning.
I don't agree with the exclusion of certain players including carvalho but I am pleased he has bought through 2 more academy players.
Joe Lolley too i see as a problem - almost the Antonio effect = players stop making runs off him because his head is always down trying to do it all on his own - and probably under instruction to.
It all seems a mess but if O'Neil is their man they should have the courage of their convictions and ride it out and back him - despite fans moans.
RE: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 - wassy04 - 14-04-2019
I just can’t see things coming back from here with the fans. Be safer to have someone new given a full season next year playing nice football. There are good candidates out there too, carvalhal, Wagner and jokanovic all for the bill
RE: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 - Alf - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 06:52 PM)wassy04 Wrote: I just can’t see things coming back from here with the fans. Be safer to have someone new given a full season next year playing nice football. There are good candidates out there too, carvalhal, Wagner and jokanovic all for the bill
Realistic chances of us landing Jokanovic & Wagner? One has alredy turned us down, the other was linked to Everton & Newcastle a few months back.
Both will be names that top Champ clubs will be after. If we land either I'd be gobsmacked.
RE: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 - wassy04 - 14-04-2019
(14-04-2019, 07:09 PM)Alf Wrote:(14-04-2019, 06:52 PM)wassy04 Wrote: I just can’t see things coming back from here with the fans. Be safer to have someone new given a full season next year playing nice football. There are good candidates out there too, carvalhal, Wagner and jokanovic all for the bill
Realistic chances of us landing Jokanovic & Wagner? One has alredy turned us down, the other was linked to Everton & Newcastle a few months back.
Both will be names that top Champ clubs will be after. If we land either I'd be gobsmacked.
Fair point, always a case of be careful what you wish for when changing manager.
RE: MON: Pros, Cons & Vote 2 - Spangles - 14-04-2019
It always seems to go tits up regardless.
Guardiola and a £500m budget with no FFP restrictions and we'd still somehow contrive to c**k it up.