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RE: You Decide - Strawberry Avenger - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 03:31 PM)TrickySte Wrote: ... and despite all that, 51 points was our lowest points total under Fawaz. Which came in his final season, where he was essentially absent as he tried to find a buyer.
The Greeks with all their expertise & experience, 80 odd transfers & 5 managers in 4 years took us to 52 points last season & the worst start in the clubs history this season.
Although I suppose we can just blame Murphy for that.
Fawaz appointed the kind of managers that knew this league in SoD, Davies, Pearce. They all did well for a while. But top 7 was seemed not good enough. And it was also very short-sighted as the embargo proved.
For the Greek owners?
Off the field there have been massive strides in infrastructure which will augur well for the future!
On the field? Short-termism. They thought they could make a dash for the finish line when the Championship is a marathon, not a sprint.
Their biggest mistakes were under estimating the nature of the Championship (with a host of 'who are they?' and 'how old are they?' players) and blowing a very strategic 13 million on Carvalho.
Appointing the likes of Warburton, Aitor, MoN (who was scarcely backed), (even Sabri in that January) and now Hughton and not backing them. If Hughton had 13 million to spend, arrived after Sabri was sacked at the end of the previous season which he should have been then a Hughton pre-season and his own players we'd be much further ahead. If we'd had the patience to stick with Warburton? We'd be further ahead. (Ironically, I think he'd have dove-tailed nicely with Dane's approach.)
We have to give some credit to them. Academy tier 1. The Taylor stand development. And recognising their error and appointing a progressive CEO who 'gets the Championship. (I like the mission brief. But I still don't see how you flush 14 points down the pan because you don't start with a LB and a Striker. Two players. He had plenty of time. Any fan could see where our weaknesses were. Even Blackburn can spot a LB for £500k and get the deal done. Permanently.)
There is no magic wand to fix a 'short-term-ism' approach. It clearly did a lot of damage to wages and transfer war chest. It will take another year to flush out players who are on expensive contracts and old legs. I suppose I could say that Dane and Forest have made great strides in terms of fixing the 1st part but they still need to get those bodies in. And if we don't. We're going to struggle. Hughton isn't Jesus Christ. He can only do so much with what he's got.
SA.
RE: You Decide - Salvatore Matrecano - 30-08-2021
Just seen this thread.
Seriously WTF?
RE: You Decide - stirred - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 04:57 PM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote: Just seen this thread.
Seriously WTF?
My thoughts exactly.
But glancing through the transfers thread someone asked for one. I like a poll to show fans' thoughts and how they change, but something like this just isn't helpful right now.
RE: You Decide - SSM - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 02:10 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: Alf mi owd I am not desperate at all mate.
I have all the facts here below. I rest my case. Anyone who thinks that they can argue against it is blind to put it politely.
Fawaz and Emad:
Unpaid wages.
Unpaid Taxes.
Unpaid catering and work contractors.
Unpaid Pizzas at Brighton.
No safety certificate for the ground.
Ground badly decaying.
Transfer embargo.
Failure to pay installments on transfer fees.
Winding up orders.
Sold Lascelles and Darlow behind the managers back.
Selling Ollie Burke behind Montanier's back.
Stole the FA Cup from the trophy cabinet.
Club one breath from death.
EM and IV.
Some bad recruitment.
You decide...
Fawaz and EM are million miles apart.
I think there's been a few more issues than just bad recruitment on EM/Vrentzos account also though.
RE: You Decide - Strawberry Avenger - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 05:29 PM)SSM Wrote:(30-08-2021, 02:10 PM)Sniffer Dog Wrote: Alf mi owd I am not desperate at all mate.
I have all the facts here below. I rest my case. Anyone who thinks that they can argue against it is blind to put it politely.
Fawaz and Emad:
Unpaid wages.
Unpaid Taxes.
Unpaid catering and work contractors.
Unpaid Pizzas at Brighton.
No safety certificate for the ground.
Ground badly decaying.
Transfer embargo.
Failure to pay installments on transfer fees.
Winding up orders.
Sold Lascelles and Darlow behind the managers back.
Selling Ollie Burke behind Montanier's back.
Stole the FA Cup from the trophy cabinet.
Club one breath from death.
EM and IV.
Some bad recruitment.
You decide...
Fawaz and EM are million miles apart.
I think there's been a few more issues than just bad recruitment on EM/Vrentzos account also though.
There's no doubt they pumped alot of money in. I dread to think of where we'd be without them. Just look at what happened at Bury. And nearly Bolton.
They came from the Olympiakos vantage point. A virtual Mount Olympus in terms of achievement and success.
It just wasn't 'that easy' to translate that model to Forest who really were 'unfit for purpose.' After initial success recovery with Warburton and then top 7 success with Aitor it become clear that early momentum masked problems that ran deeper for many years.
And if they want that for Forest the riches are there for them and Forest fans.
But we have to get there. 1st.
We have to beat this 'short-term-ism' junkie like addiction. I'd like to see Dane and Hughton here to finish what they're started. That will require patience.
It's telling that both Hughton and Worrall have BOTH mentioned the new 'Plan B' mandate in post match. I'm glad to hear it.
And Dane did mention we have to get everybody pulling in one direction. And when that happens. We'll get the good stuff on the pitch.
We'll have to pop the hubris balloon and earn it. I guess losing 12 (narrowly we lost those...) points is the price of freedom.
SA.
RE: You Decide - Username - 30-08-2021
Thought I had logged on to Vital.
This is normally the kind of thing that comes up on there when the kids are off school.
RE: You Decide - Paplane - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 06:14 PM)Username Wrote: Thought I had logged on to Vital.
This is normally the kind of thing that comes up on there when the kids are off school.
I think Sniff's just venting at the double standards that are in place with Forest fans at the moment. Everyone needs to blame someone for the clubs predicament. At the moment its Vrentzos even though very few people actually know what the guy did day to day at the club. And CH gets the flack because he's an obvious villian for fans to attack.
Dane Murphy is currently viewed as the bees kness, the future, the one with all the answers who can do no wrong. But, like a player who plays 5 games before we can see he's shit, theres a good chance that Murphy might hit the dead end just like Fawaz and Doughty found, that running a big Championship club is damn hard.
RE: You Decide - Marinakis Red - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 07:44 PM)Paplane Wrote:(30-08-2021, 06:14 PM)Username Wrote: Thought I had logged on to Vital.
This is normally the kind of thing that comes up on there when the kids are off school.
I think Sniff's just venting at the double standards that are in place with Forest fans at the moment. Everyone needs to blame someone for the clubs predicament. At the moment its Vrentzos even though very few people actually know what the guy did day to day at the club. And CH gets the flack because he's an obvious villian for fans to attack.
Dane Murphy is currently viewed as the bees kness, the future, the one with all the answers who can do no wrong. But, like a player who plays 5 games before we can see he's S**t, theres a good chance that Murphy might hit the dead end just like Fawaz and Doughty found, that running a big Championship club is damn hard.
More challenging Sniffs double standards mate and asking a couple of questions this morning that he just could not answer. Having asked me to have a balanced approach. I just asked for the same when he came on this morning saying he will hammer Dane.
I just wanted to know why he did not do the same when Vrentzos signed diakhaby, da Costa and bong from a position of strength. Then he set this thread up. They are the only double standards. I have praised marinakis and in fact Vrentzos for the off field state of the club. But cannot challenge recruitment under Vrentzos but Sniff can hammer Dane. I said it would be a different debate had we recruited well in that window, again dont you mate?
I think that is fair enough dont you? I'm not sure how you can compare Dane to fawaz and doughty, he does not own the club. It is not his money.
RE: You Decide - SSM - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 07:44 PM)Paplane Wrote:(30-08-2021, 06:14 PM)Username Wrote: Thought I had logged on to Vital.
This is normally the kind of thing that comes up on there when the kids are off school.
I think Sniff's just venting at the double standards that are in place with Forest fans at the moment. Everyone needs to blame someone for the clubs predicament. At the moment its Vrentzos even though very few people actually know what the guy did day to day at the club. And CH gets the flack because he's an obvious villian for fans to attack.
Dane Murphy is currently viewed as the bees kness, the future, the one with all the answers who can do no wrong. But, like a player who plays 5 games before we can see he's S**t, theres a good chance that Murphy might hit the dead end just like Fawaz and Doughty found, that running a big Championship club is damn hard.
Dane Murphy isn't viewed as the bees knees. But he's someone who's spoken about the importance of a plan, identify and making every decision you take, relevant to that. That's pre and present day he's spoken about it. Some of us, myself included relate to that notion.
The idea of a bigger picture and process that is beyond today.
The club absolutely have not followed that idea, Randall (through gritted teeth) admitted as much in his recent interview.
People are putting hope into Murphy, because his ideologies much closer relate to those who are having success in the modern game, as opposed to the approach the club has been taking in the past number of years. Of course you'll get people going overboard and speaking with certainties but you have to see through that anyway.
My frustrations with what's happened these previous years is not the ambition. It's the whole plan. Arrogance and ignorance to how football has changed in recent years and how we've been trying to do what worked 5-10 years ago. Chasing instant success with a lack of regard to how we actually aim to achieve it. We knew what we wanted, but we didn't really think how to get there.
Aside from that, the reason Vrentzos specifically gets stick, from me, is because of how he has treated people. I wont go into boring details, but people in non-football admin roles at the club left because of him and how poorly he treated people. The bomb squad is a perfect example of an overt way of players being treated poorly, let alone admin staff. Players getting told they're leaving and having removals turning up to boot them out.
Constant falling out with agents which impacted players we had now, who we could sign and if players had to leave. How pathetic is that? How can pettiness take precedence over football operations?
We've got Gaetan Bong at left-back, a, because Vrentzos is good pals with his agent and b, because one of the ones we recently signed is an agent Vrentzos fell out with and as such he wouldn't let him be played anymore.
Now. EM, Vrenztos and co are nowhere near as bad as Fawaz. Absolutely nowhere near. We're a respectable business again, they are genuinely ambitious and want success. But I don't think they know how to go about achieving it with Forest at this level. But they're not used to facing as many challenges either and they don't like to be challenged by fans on the matter. Many fans have been blocked on social media for voicing their frustration, Vrentzos has previous followed and unfollowed people on twitter to let them know he's reading what they're saying. Forza Garibaldi weren't allowed to be involved in the Q&A but the Trust were cos of their kid gloves approach and not wanting to be cut off.
It's all very petty and very much against the greater good of the club.
That's why people are frustrated with EM and Vrentzos. At times it feels like our intelligence is being insulted.
They're a couple of poor decisions away from mutiny right now. They'd do well to back the man whose approach is aligned with the modern game (Dane Murphy) and not use him as a scapegoat or handicap him in any kind of self serving - 'he can't do it either, so don't blame us'.
RE: You Decide - Paplane - 30-08-2021
I just dont accept that it was Vrentzos personally who identified and chose players to sign, there were many others involved in that too. All I see are the decent deals that appear to have happened, like getting that big dollop of cash for Cash and those little dodgy deals done for players coming in for 6 months and then leaving for profit which offset ffp. Thats why I'm not prepared to critise Vrentzos as I just base my judement on what i see.
And with regard to the merits of this particular owner, I find it reassuiring that the guy successfully runs another football club and he appears to be a football nut, rather than some of the venture capitalists, shady characters, and deluded billionaires that are, for example, looking to get hold of the sheep. The sheep are an incredibly similar club to us in terms of standing in the game, geographical location, fan base and fan expectation. Why would we not get similar types looking to buy our club? In the words of the great Mark Arthur, we should be careful what we wish for.
RE: You Decide - Marinakis Red - 30-08-2021
(30-08-2021, 08:08 PM)Paplane Wrote: I just dont accept that it was Vrentzos personally who identified and chose players to sign, there were many others involved in that too. All I see are the decent deals that appear to have happened, like getting that big dollop of cash for Cash and those little dodgy deals done for players coming in for 6 months and then leaving for profit which offset ffp. Thats why I'm not prepared to critise Vrentzos as I just base my judement on what i see.
And with regard to the merits of this particular owner, I find it reassuiring that the guy successfully runs another football club and he appears to be a football nut, rather than some of the venture capitalists, shady characters, and deluded billionaires that are, for example, looking to get hold of the sheep. The sheep are an incredibly similar club to us in terms of standing in the game, geographical location, fan base and fan expectation. Why would we not get similar types looking to buy our club? In the words of the great Mark Arthur, we should be careful what we wish for.
It has nothing to do with the actual ownership mate, principles of this forum, but is run by sniff and he can do what he likes, but do not ask for balance when you cannot do the same. As you rightly say, double standards. That is what gets my goat. I have openly said I will criticise Dane should he get decisions wrong just like I have Vrentzos, but it seems the you can only go one way and to criticise Vrentzos is not one of them.
It is not the first time Sniff avoids all questions either. Like I say we just want balance. But that is the last of my views on it.
RE: You Decide - Paplane - 30-08-2021
Sniff can speak for himself, but like me he's probably kicking back at Murphy as a way of responding to the binary world that Forest fans operate in. Ie this person/player/manager is good until its decided hes bad. No grey area in between, no extenuating circumstances, just hero or villian.