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RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - Tricky - 25-11-2020
(25-11-2020, 11:23 AM)stirred Wrote:(25-11-2020, 08:44 AM)Tricky Wrote: I think far too many on here watch with rose tinted glasses.
Last night we played Bournemouth, a side that not too long ago were in the PL. Yes, they weren't good enough to stay there, but they did only miss out by 1 point! They are a much better side than Forest are. They are stable and for the most part, have had at least a season to gel and bond with each other. They have PL players within their side. Last night, they proved just what a good side they are.
Their first goal was created by a peach of a pass and a none hesitant finish. Instead of ripping our defence apart and blaming Figuredo/McKenna/Ribeiro/Bong or whoever else they want to blame, why not just accept that that was a bloody good goal and be done with it! That was a PL standard pass from a PL standard side.
The second goal, the 'penalty' was in my opinion outside of the box. The initial contact made by Colback was not in the penalty area and of course, as soon as their player felt any kind of contact he was going to go down. He went down far too easily and the Ref bought it. Yes we were lucky at the end of the game when Colback did foul their player in the box and got away with it.
From my point of view, we played well against a much more organised and well drilled side and were beaten by a very good goal and a dubious penalty.
We are an average side in the Championship. We are not good enough to compete against PL sides and beat them all. We do not have the right to be classed as good as Bournemouth.
Matty Cash, last season was a class above any other defender in the league last season. He was rightfully sold to a PL side and this time around is proving his worth. His class shone above anything else our side had to offer last season. If we don't have players of the calibre of Cash in our side, then I'm afraid to say, we aint going nowhere!
It's time to accept that our players, irrespective of their names and what they have done in the past, have not been good enough so far this season to get excited about. We should forget all about promotion and play offs and concentrate on getting OUR basics right and start to improve on where we are at presently.
I disagree with a lot of that. I don't disagree they have a lot of attacking talent, and I fully expected us to lose (given how we have been playing lately). But we made it easy for them.
That's just not true about the first goal, it was terrible defending. Competent defending would have swept the ball away. And if you think I'm some random who doesn't understand the game, take a listen to what Viv Anderson said about it in the studio.
And we didn't lose to two moments. We were outplayed.
And we aren't average in terms of talent in the squad, we are definitely above average. We're just not getting it to deliver.
That is your opinion Stirred and whilst I don't agree with it, i will respect it.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - Alf - 25-11-2020
(25-11-2020, 08:31 AM)Sabricadabra Wrote: I imagine the owners will look to sell if Hughton doesn’t work out. Nowhere else to go after him.
We saw the gulf in quality between established Premier League clubs and a bang average Championship outfit like Forest. How do we compete against £100m teams and ongoing parachute payments. It becomes more difficult every year. Derby and Sheff Wednesday in the same boat.
Well tbf we competed under Davies.
I remember going into HT 2-0 down against Watford back in 13/14. Heads were down, they were the calibre team, and we had Halford playing as a makeshift striker, Abdoun on the pitch, and having to defend using players like Collins, Harding, and Moussi.
Darius Henderon, Simon Cox and Jamie Mackie came on.
Now imagine those 3 being options under Hughton. Would anyone expect any goals? No.
But we won 4-2. We bought on those 3 "average/poor" players and found FOUR goals in one half.
THAT's the difference between a REAL manager & one who's over-hyped because he's been at clubs with budgets & situations that allowed him to build & add quality.
We're an impatient shit club, run shitly & with a shit budget now. That needs to change to get the best out of Hughton, else we need a manager who can turn shit into gold like Davies.
The club needs to cut it's cloth accordingly, and if the calibre of player we keep signing each window is as good as we can get, we need a manager who can get more from average players, rather than someone who can build progressively and doesn't upset the status quo.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - stirred - 25-11-2020
(25-11-2020, 11:49 AM)Tricky Wrote:(25-11-2020, 11:23 AM)stirred Wrote:(25-11-2020, 08:44 AM)Tricky Wrote: I think far too many on here watch with rose tinted glasses.
Last night we played Bournemouth, a side that not too long ago were in the PL. Yes, they weren't good enough to stay there, but they did only miss out by 1 point! They are a much better side than Forest are. They are stable and for the most part, have had at least a season to gel and bond with each other. They have PL players within their side. Last night, they proved just what a good side they are.
Their first goal was created by a peach of a pass and a none hesitant finish. Instead of ripping our defence apart and blaming Figuredo/McKenna/Ribeiro/Bong or whoever else they want to blame, why not just accept that that was a bloody good goal and be done with it! That was a PL standard pass from a PL standard side.
The second goal, the 'penalty' was in my opinion outside of the box. The initial contact made by Colback was not in the penalty area and of course, as soon as their player felt any kind of contact he was going to go down. He went down far too easily and the Ref bought it. Yes we were lucky at the end of the game when Colback did foul their player in the box and got away with it.
From my point of view, we played well against a much more organised and well drilled side and were beaten by a very good goal and a dubious penalty.
We are an average side in the Championship. We are not good enough to compete against PL sides and beat them all. We do not have the right to be classed as good as Bournemouth.
Matty Cash, last season was a class above any other defender in the league last season. He was rightfully sold to a PL side and this time around is proving his worth. His class shone above anything else our side had to offer last season. If we don't have players of the calibre of Cash in our side, then I'm afraid to say, we aint going nowhere!
It's time to accept that our players, irrespective of their names and what they have done in the past, have not been good enough so far this season to get excited about. We should forget all about promotion and play offs and concentrate on getting OUR basics right and start to improve on where we are at presently.
I disagree with a lot of that. I don't disagree they have a lot of attacking talent, and I fully expected us to lose (given how we have been playing lately). But we made it easy for them.
That's just not true about the first goal, it was terrible defending. Competent defending would have swept the ball away. And if you think I'm some random who doesn't understand the game, take a listen to what Viv Anderson said about it in the studio.
And we didn't lose to two moments. We were outplayed.
And we aren't average in terms of talent in the squad, we are definitely above average. We're just not getting it to deliver.
That is your opinion Stirred and whilst I don't agree with it, i will respect it.
Fair play Tricky, yeah just my opinion (and a bit of Viv's :) ), one tree in the forest.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - Strawberry Avenger - 25-11-2020
Bournemouth look like a £100 miollion side and we didn't.
They seemed to have more energy and quality.
The full backs are soft.
Figs isn't good enough.
No quick fix. A pre season on the hoof.
Can Marinakis stick with a manager..?
SA.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - Widdow - 25-11-2020
Bournemouth proved you can play attractive attacking football and can win. Our style of play needs changing.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - stirred - 25-11-2020
(25-11-2020, 11:56 AM)Alf Wrote:(25-11-2020, 08:31 AM)Sabricadabra Wrote: I imagine the owners will look to sell if Hughton doesn’t work out. Nowhere else to go after him.
We saw the gulf in quality between established Premier League clubs and a bang average Championship outfit like Forest. How do we compete against £100m teams and ongoing parachute payments. It becomes more difficult every year. Derby and Sheff Wednesday in the same boat.
Well tbf we competed under Davies.
I remember going into HT 2-0 down against Watford back in 13/14. Heads were down, they were the calibre team, and we had Halford playing as a makeshift striker, Abdoun on the pitch, and having to defend using players like Collins, Harding, and Moussi.
Darius Henderon, Simon Cox and Jamie Mackie came on.
Now imagine those 3 being options under Hughton. Would anyone expect any goals? No.
But we won 4-2. We bought on those 3 "average/poor" players and found FOUR goals in one half.
THAT's the difference between a REAL manager & one who's over-hyped because he's been at clubs with budgets & situations that allowed him to build & add quality.
We're an impatient S**t club, run shitly & with a S**t budget now. That needs to change to get the best out of Hughton, else we need a manager who can turn S**t into gold like Davies.
The club needs to cut it's cloth accordingly, and if the calibre of player we keep signing each window is as good as we can get, we need a manager who can get more from average players, rather than someone who can build progressively and doesn't upset the status quo.
I don't know a lot about Paul Cook, but from afar he seemed to pick up some decent players - albeit I've no idea how much he had to do with recruitment - integrate youngsters, play some decent stuff and seemingly get a good return in terms of results from his resources. My gut feel when Hughton was announced was that I'd have preferred Cook.
That was partly because Hughton has a rep for dour, inflexible football. The CVs look good but Hughton got promotion with an excellent Newcastle squad (with whom he was well familiar after being a first team coach and caretaker manager). He got promotion with Brighton after being well-backed, and in his 3rd season. Karanka had got his promotion after being well-backed, and only in his 3rd season. (And also had a rep for dour football).
I'd be happy with a coach who has demonstrated that he can work with players he has, will bring on young talent and play decent stuff to watch. For a club without parachute payments, that seems a sensible approach. I'm happy to be patient and watch things develop, but I want to see enjoyable football being played in the meantime.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - PsychoStanleyStone - 25-11-2020
i think our players showed enough to see they are good players but shackled to a system
most of the times we seem to look good and exciting and effective is when players shrug off all the pre planned defensive and shape related drills, roll there sleeves up and get stuck in
some radical triple substitution and an extreme focus on actually scoring and basically liberating the players and get some overloads going
a goal keeping coaching with a file of notes briefing a seasoned pro about what he has to do is the opposite of what the players need
i'm only posting because i think we had enough to of scored a couple of goals last night but although the professional stuff was there, the belief and desire to win might of been absent
our club, where we are with what we have needs a maverick crazy dude who has the balls to really inspire this lot, even if it is just for 10 minutes where everyone goes all out with some skeleton of plan but plenty of room to gamble
i thought Sammy Ameobi looked absolute class last night but found himself surrounded by players who weren't really up for a game and more focussed on 'doing there jobs' ie a little or run or maybe a hopeful cross that constitutes some sort of end product
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - PsychoStanleyStone - 25-11-2020
(25-11-2020, 12:53 PM)stirred Wrote:(25-11-2020, 11:56 AM)Alf Wrote:(25-11-2020, 08:31 AM)Sabricadabra Wrote: I imagine the owners will look to sell if Hughton doesn’t work out. Nowhere else to go after him.
We saw the gulf in quality between established Premier League clubs and a bang average Championship outfit like Forest. How do we compete against £100m teams and ongoing parachute payments. It becomes more difficult every year. Derby and Sheff Wednesday in the same boat.
Well tbf we competed under Davies.
we need a manager who can turn S**t into gold like Davies.
preferred Cook.
Hughton has a rep for dour, inflexible football.
Sabri, regards ''How do we compete against £100m teams and ongoing parachute payments'' i actually think with trips away to Bournemouth, leave all the key players at home, play peripherals and those who should be good but aren't playing well, try differant things, extreme, ie defensive and offensive, but have we got the bottle to choose our games, but if it got players performing at 110% for Swansea why not?
Alf ''we need a manager who can turn S**t into gold like Davies.'' Hughton turns good into competent but competent losses don't count for owt
Stirred ''Hughton has a rep for dour, inflexible football.'' ... and that's after around half a dozen games, to be fair he has got us playing slightly more positive but i think our squad could produce the exceptional in spells, like i keep saying after a triple substitution, defenders off, offensive on, give them total freedom to make goals, overlapping cb's whatever.
did anyone else notice some of Sammy Ameobie's work last night, i thought he looked total class, he needed others to bounce off and noone wanted to play but i think Sammy Ammy is our best player at the moment ... build a team around him, i thought his fitness held up well as well and did some defensive stuff and showed some great composure when surrounded, if a few more had rolled there sleeves up and wanted it more
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - Alf - 25-11-2020
Some good posts Stirred & PSS. I agree with most of both.
So frustrating, because a lot of positive ingredients are there. But bogged down by dross & negative ones.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - Sabricadabra - 26-11-2020
(25-11-2020, 09:13 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote:(25-11-2020, 08:44 AM)Tricky Wrote: I think far too many on here watch with rose tinted glasses.
Last night we played Bournemouth, a side that not too long ago were in the PL. Yes, they weren't good enough to stay there, but they did only miss out by 1 point! They are a much better side than Forest are. They are stable and for the most part, have had at least a season to gel and bond with each other. They have PL players within their side. Last night, they proved just what a good side they are.
Their first goal was created by a peach of a pass and a none hesitant finish. Instead of ripping our defence apart and blaming Figuredo/McKenna/Ribeiro/Bong or whoever else they want to blame, why not just accept that that was a bloody good goal and be done with it! That was a PL standard pass from a PL standard side.
The second goal, the 'penalty' was in my opinion outside of the box. The initial contact made by Colback was not in the penalty area and of course, as soon as their player felt any kind of contact he was going to go down. He went down far too easily and the Ref bought it. Yes we were lucky at the end of the game when Colback did foul their player in the box and got away with it.
From my point of view, we played well against a much more organised and well drilled side and were beaten by a very good goal and a dubious penalty.
We are an average side in the Championship. We are not good enough to compete against PL sides and beat them all. We do not have the right to be classed as good as Bournemouth.
Matty Cash, last season was a class above any other defender in the league last season. He was rightfully sold to a PL side and this time around is proving his worth. His class shone above anything else our side had to offer last season. If we don't have players of the calibre of Cash in our side, then I'm afraid to say, we aint going nowhere!
It's time to accept that our players, irrespective of their names and what they have done in the past, have not been good enough so far this season to get excited about. We should forget all about promotion and play offs and concentrate on getting OUR basics right and start to improve on where we are at presently.
The more expensive ex premier league team played better football and won comfortably, I think we all agree with that.
The problem with accepting we are a bang average Championship side is that the owners spent a large sum over the summer to supposedly bridge that gap in class and they have failed to do so. Unfortunately that summer spending will have to be paid for and we know what that means, sell some youngsters, blame the manager and rebuild yet again next season.
We are bang average in terms of spending power. That is a fact. However, I don’t believe this squad is bang average. I think we are underperforming.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - PsychoStanleyStone - 26-11-2020
(26-11-2020, 12:25 AM)Sabricadabra Wrote:(25-11-2020, 09:13 AM)Salvatore Matrecano Wrote:(25-11-2020, 08:44 AM)Tricky Wrote: I think far too many on here watch with rose tinted glasses.
From my point of view, we played well .... concentrate on getting OUR basics right and start to improve on where we are at presently.
The problem with accepting we are a bang average Championship side
We are bang average in terms of spending power. That is a fact. However, I don’t believe this squad is bang average. I think we are underperforming.
I agree Sabricadabra, we are underperforming, but then I have the 'rose tinted glasses' dilemma, presented by Tricky, who says we played well and then says get the basics right.
Right, ok, so, I actually think the basics v Bournemouth were right, generally organised, maybe very organised, in fact the basics in relation to all this are there, as in, we weren't in dissarray running around like headless chickens.
In fact this is my big trigger point now, i think the club ... AK, Sabri and Hughton are all basics obsessed, i think they treat the players like idiots, and totally obsessed with positional stuff and reactionary recovery drills, we have stopped being expressive, it's the same formation for around 3 years now, it never really changes during a game.
We have good players, they don't need piles of notes and need the game explaining to them, especially offensive players being told what to do by a defensive manager and i'm sure it was the goalkeeping coach giving Knocky pre introduction instructions.
This team gets the basics, i want see some overlaps, players surging passed the striker, late runs into the box, unpredictable stuff instead of crosses to Taylor surrounded by 4 defenders and not another Forest player within 20 metres.
Incredibly for the lowest scoring team in history, this squad could score for fun, but they need freedom and players around them who have a wealth of ability and experience of unlocking defences but they could work it out between them, they need to be trusted and another offensive player thrust into the mix to give them the support to play their game.
RE: Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest - Madforit - 26-11-2020
Paul Merson summed us up perfectly last night, he stated that we only started to play when we went two nil down and that if we had started like that from the beginning then it could have been a different outcome, frustrating as it is, he is definitely right, we always start any game too cautiously almost frightened to death of going a goal behind.
I think this is where the problem lies within the squad of players that we have, Hughton needs to take the shackles off and let this team play to its abilities, we know that on paper we have a good squad of players, its about time that our manager lets the opposition worry about us and not the other way around.