(13-04-2023, 11:45 AM)Shawoddyred Wrote:

(13-04-2023, 11:24 AM)wassy04 Wrote:

(13-04-2023, 11:15 AM)Shawoddyred Wrote: It's all gone a bit weird on here. There is a growing group of folk who are questioning Coopers decision making and tactics but now an extremely die hard set of posters who will not seem to accept that he can be questioned. I think everyone is very grateful for the fact that he was a big part of the club when we finally won promotion to the prem, but I really don't understand why some don't believe he can be questioned. And the response to him being questioned are replies of - yes we're shite, but it's because of everyone and everything else at the club, not Coops. Just find it a bit odd. In my opinion, he can be questioned. Yes, some bad luck, but he is the manager and some believe that there are some aspects he can do better and they might have had an effect in the number of points we currently sit on. Yes, EM deserves to be judged too and clearly he has made a few errors, which he continues to try to put right. Yes, the recruitment team have made some blunders....as all recruitment teams do in every league in the world! And yes, the players need to take some responsibility......we all win together, we all lose together, but actually, it is literally Cooper's job to make sure we win enough, that is his job and he has to be held to account...because it's a job.

There's also a growing number of posters that use this argument to hide behind wanting Cooper out. Me and Zico have probably been the most vocal on defending Cooper yet we've both openly admitted when he's made mistakes too. I've listed these on numerous occasions, doesn't mean I won't defend him too particularly when it's discussing things that are put of his control.

No-one at any point had said he's untouchable or made no mistakes. If you choose to ignore those comments then that's your choice. 

Your argument fell apart at the end though. Sure you're allowed to criticise but at the end you've essentially says he has to be held to account which I presume means sacked if he fails. Which essentially says that regardless of anything out of his control he should be held accountable for failing to achieve an unrealistic target.

3 teams have to go down, does that mean all three teams that go down have failed? Or can't it be simply that the other teams are good and these teams aren't quite as good, sometimes due to factors out of their control like having to build a new team or injuries to half their best players.

So the crux of it is should Cooper be punished for not winning despite the injuries and influx of new players?

You don't seem to be defending Cooper as such. You seem to supply him excuses and blame others. Why not focus on what he is doing well at the moment, try to persuade those questioning him by saying what he is doing well rather than saying about injuries etc. 

I don't think it's an unrealistic target to have kept us up, even taking into account the problems we've faced. That's the difference in our perspectives. There are some absolutely shocking clubs this year, especially Everton, Southampton and Leicester. They have also faced huge problems so our minimum target should be to stay above them....and we still might! 

Yes, the 3 teams that get relegated have failed. I think that's unquestionable and a weird thing to argue as the opposite. 

I don't actually think anyone wants 'Cooper out'. I am very much on the fence to be honest. I certainly wouldn't be upset if he's given the chance to avoid relegation for the rest of the season for sure. I wouldn't be upset if we went down and he was given the start of next season. I think he's done a great job but I also think the football is really average, it has been for a very long time, even during the latter part of the promotion season. When it matters (ie to avoid relegation or win promotion), we seem to revert to very negative tactics that aren't working anymore. So, I do also sometimes think, would someone else be able to come in and get more out of the team at the dying end of this season that might make a positive difference in keeping us up? 

Whatever happens, at the end of the season there will be hindsight applied. 

And don't picture it as 'punishment'. Seriously, he's a grown adult in a ruthless profession and I don't think he would view it that way. He's also been publicly backed twice this season against the norm. He seems like a really nice bloke, he's done a lot for the club but perhaps he needs to do more? Hard to say definitively, but watching the football there do seem to be some shortcomings, regardless of available players, that could be addressed.

(13-04-2023, 12:04 PM)wassy04 Wrote: Wanted to reply as this is a good debate btw, it's nice to have a proper discussion rather than just a Cooper out, the team is shite etc..

Some successes and reasons to keep him:

- The most popular manager in my lifetime, got the fans firmly behind him. This is true for me too....but not sure it's a reason to keep. Hughton was actually quite popular too, even up to the point when he got sacked people were saying he should be given time.  
- most successful manager of my lifetime. True for me too (in a way, I'm sure his win %age is now suffering).....but again, last years success was last year. We live in the present.
- Managed to completely change the team early on after unsuccessfully truing to implement the tactics from last year. Do agree with this. It's partly why I'm now worried he hasn't seemed to be able to do something again in recent weeks. We have had some very good opportunities in terms of opponent and game situation but now appear completely fragile and timid, which I think needs to be addressed by a manager. 
- Managed to persuade a number of top players to sign and continues to get a lot of support from existing players. Think this accolade needs to be shared around, it was well publicised that Milito in particular was important in this regard. Though, yes, people have said that players want to play for Steve. However, there do seem to have been a few fallouts....and this continued team sheet leaking would suggest there are some that aren't in support in some way, shape or form. 
- The dressing room is still firmly with him and working hard, albeit unsuccessfully. Same as above. 
- Lost one home game since September and has created a tough environment for opposition at home. True. but I would counter to say that the performances have seriously dropped off. In my opinion we've dropped off way too deep now, we need to be trying to win the ball 10 yards further up the pitch. I thought this towards the end of last season and in the playoffs too, although obviously we ultimately got to where we wanted. Not sure we're going to be so lucky this time. 

(13-04-2023, 12:05 PM)zicorice Wrote: The real issues are these:-
1. Would we be better off if Cooper hadn't joined us and we'd got our first choice? (Currently struggling at Watford). Definitely not! It just clicked last year, brilliant!

2. After Leicester away would we have been better off changing managers? (We were on 4 points at time,). No, history clearly states he did well for a period of time. btu why haven't we kicked on?

3. After West Ham away would we have been better off changing managers? (2 points in 6 since). Probably, yes. 

4. Are the mitigating circumstances - injuries esp- beyond anyone's control? You always get injuries, but we have had a ridiculous amount. Something is amiss, could be training methods, could be the surfaces we've prepared, could be the warm ups, could be the physios, could be we've bought the wrong players. I think pure bad luck is pushing it a bit too far. 

5. Is there some master tactician out there who could get the available players to win more games? I don't actually think it's that black and white. I actually think that sometimes all it takes is a change. A breath of fresh air, someone comes in and invigorates the club. It also suggests that you consider Steve to be a master tactician....I think his greatest strength is probably in man management of younger players in particular. I would not consider him a master tactician to be honest. 

6. Of our recent starting line ups available, who are other clubs truly likely to be interested in? Plenty, probably all in some way, shape or form. All clubs need something, I think all of our players would be useful to other prem clubs, depending on their needs. 

7. Is changing the manager on this occasion the right way forward? Flip a coin! I don't envy the position EM is in! The only way he can truly win is if we stay up. If he backs Steve and we stay up, perfect. If he backs Steve and we go down, buggered. If he changes and we stay up, good but there will be some folk saying Steve would have done it and want him back. If he changes and we go down....all hell breaks loose!! EM will also be thinking, and I really sympathise with this....if I do nothing and we go down, then that is definitely on me! 

I know what I think. Watching opposition close up week in week out, they mostly have more cohesion and mostly - especially since injuries really kicked in - better players in key positions. Take Mings at Villa. Doesn't get too many plaudits, quite a bit of stick in fact, but what would I give to have him as our Left CB? Obviously a good player, who I would definitely take! 

It's not that I don't think we have good players and at times a good side, it's just others have better players and a better side. Has Cooper made mistakes? Of course he has, but he's also got alot right and kept an inferior squad in the fight up to this point.

I could be wrong, but I think Cooper is the right guy for us. If we'd had the right guy in 99 instead of Platt, we could have bounced straight back potentially instead of spanking money on failures, crocks and the odd player who thrived after he left.  Watching my club sack manager after manager and stagger from useless bad fits one after another in the main, makes me think we are on balance of probability better off with the guy we have at least until next season begins to pan out...

(13-04-2023, 12:41 PM)Shawoddyred Wrote:

(13-04-2023, 12:05 PM)zicorice Wrote: The real issues are these:-
1. Would we be better off if Cooper hadn't joined us and we'd got our first choice? (Currently struggling at Watford). Definitely not! It just clicked last year, brilliant!

2. After Leicester away would we have been better off changing managers? (We were on 4 points at time,). No, history clearly states he did well for a period of time. btu why haven't we kicked on?

3. After West Ham away would we have been better off changing managers? (2 points in 6 since). Probably, yes. 

4. Are the mitigating circumstances - injuries esp- beyond anyone's control? You always get injuries, but we have had a ridiculous amount. Something is amiss, could be training methods, could be the surfaces we've prepared, could be the warm ups, could be the physios, could be we've bought the wrong players. I think pure bad luck is pushing it a bit too far. 

5. Is there some master tactician out there who could get the available players to win more games? I don't actually think it's that black and white. I actually think that sometimes all it takes is a change. A breath of fresh air, someone comes in and invigorates the club. It also suggests that you consider Steve to be a master tactician....I think his greatest strength is probably in man management of younger players in particular. I would not consider him a master tactician to be honest. 

6. Of our recent starting line ups available, who are other clubs truly likely to be interested in? Plenty, probably all in some way, shape or form. All clubs need something, I think all of our players would be useful to other prem clubs, depending on their needs. 

7. Is changing the manager on this occasion the right way forward? Flip a coin! I don't envy the position EM is in! The only way he can truly win is if we stay up. If he backs Steve and we stay up, perfect. If he backs Steve and we go down, buggered. If he changes and we stay up, good but there will be some folk saying Steve would have done it and want him back. If he changes and we go down....all hell breaks loose!! EM will also be thinking, and I really sympathise with this....if I do nothing and we go down, then that is definitely on me! 

I know what I think. Watching opposition close up week in week out, they mostly have more cohesion and mostly - especially since injuries really kicked in - better players in key positions. Take Mings at Villa. Doesn't get too many plaudits, quite a bit of stick in fact, but what would I give to have him as our Left CB? Obviously a good player, who I would definitely take! 

It's not that I don't think we have good players and at times a good side, it's just others have better players and a better side. Has Cooper made mistakes? Of course he has, but he's also got alot right and kept an inferior squad in the fight up to this point.

I could be wrong, but I think Cooper is the right guy for us. If we'd had the right guy in 99 instead of Platt, we could have bounced straight back potentially instead of spanking money on failures, crocks and the odd player who thrived after he left.  Watching my club sack manager after manager and stagger from useless bad fits one after another in the main, makes me think we are on balance of probability better off with the guy we have at least until next season begins to pan out...

I'll respond here, too.....

(15-04-2023, 10:00 AM)northeastred Wrote: Athletic confirming it was cooper who wanted woods and ayew. Giraldi got him them..