Why Did Clough Break Up The Golden Generation Too Early

[Strawberry Avenger]

In the absence of Forest's cliffhanger season...

...I've been watching when England ruled Europe.

An astonishing era where Forest won the 2nd Division, the 1st Division, League Cup, European Cup and the Super Cup.  An era not to replicated by any club ever again.  Not from where Forest came from as Cornershop, Cosmopolitan Paupers.

But it was sited by some in the Documentary (which looks at Shankley's L8v*rp**l and then Paisleys and how Forest overtook them before they faded...) that the 'team' was broken up too early.  And that notion was repeated by others.

I remember Forest's success of this era.  I remember the sticker book I had (I was just missing Gary 'Bloody' Birtles...)

What events led to the Clough/Taylor fallout and the 'break up' of this Golden Generation.  

Did they let the likes of Kenny Burns and Martin O'Neil go too early.

My one main recollection of this era was them letting Tony Woodcock go.  I think that was the most damaging blow that I can recall.  I also recollect them selling Martin O'Neil to Norwich which I thought was a mistake.

Forest got dumped out of their defence of the European Cup in the 1st round.  Did that event lead Taylor to saying 'We've shot it...', Clough agreeing and pointing the finger, 'No, you've shot it.'  A fall out.  Taylor leaving and the disruption of rebuilding or building on the success they had.

From such a great team, did the man who guarded against complacency become complacent?  Or was Clough, on his own, too bold (without Taylor reining in his brashness) in breaking up the winning formula that he and Taylor had constructed.

What the hell happened?  Forest's 'sure footedness' in acquiring players seem to evaporate.  Fashanu.  Wallace.  Carr.  The era that followed wasn't a disaster as Forest seemed to manage top 6s for quite a while (and the 1st team to do the double over new promoted Watford?) until the Silver Generation arrived.

As we know, this Golden Generation break up allowed the old enemy to rise again.  As Forest faded.

SA.

[Tricky]

There are many, many books that have covered this era of the great Forest side, with many, many different ideas about what did go wrong with the Clough/Taylor partnership/friendship.

Was it the fact that Taylor could no longer handle Cloughs obsession with being on TV at every opportunity he could (The Big Match etc) as a 'pundit', or did he want to give Derby another go but Cloughies stubbornness wouldn't allow it? Was it a difference of opinion about what players should've been brought into the club and those allowed to leave? Was it Cloughies drinking problem?

There are many theories out there about what did actually happen and i guess the only ones who really know the truth are the children of Brian and Peter (if they do know of course!).

[Ciscokid]

With every great story there are dark parts. There was much suspicion I remember especially when Trevor Francis was sold and more when the best centre half in Europe was despatched for a pitiful figure. It was never explained and perhaps it's best now that we don't try but it surely was the beginning of the decline for us despite some brave efforts by the likes of Frank Clarke and Dave Bassett.

[stirred]

I heard Trevor Francis was sold following a bad injury as the club were worried about losing on the massive investment.

[Strawberry Avenger]

I heard Trevor Francis was sold following a bad injury as the club were worried about losing on the massive investment.

I think I recall that.  It was muted as a possible reason for the sale.  That I can kind of understand.


But Woodcock?  Burns?  Lloyd?  O'Neil?  Shilton?  Robertson?


SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Also...selling Birtles to Man U.

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

With every great story there are dark parts. There was much suspicion I remember especially when Trevor Francis was sold and more when the best centre half in Europe was despatched for a pitiful figure. It was never explained and perhaps it's best now that we don't try but it surely was the beginning of the decline for us despite some brave efforts by the likes of Frank Clarke and Dave Bassett.

Clough and Taylor.

Simon and Garfunkel.

All double acts seem to suffer a break down to 'dark parts.'

CH.  Referring to Larry Lloyd?  Didn't he go cheap?  (If I remember right...I don't think I could understand that either...)

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

There are many, many books that have covered this era of the great Forest side, with many, many different ideas about what did go wrong with the Clough/Taylor partnership/friendship.

Was it the fact that Taylor could no longer handle Cloughs obsession with being on TV at every opportunity he could (The Big Match etc) as a 'pundit', or did he want to give Derby another go but Cloughies stubbornness wouldn't allow it? Was it a difference of opinion about what players should've been brought into the club and those allowed to leave? Was it Cloughies drinking problem?

There are many theories out there about what did actually happen and i guess the only ones who really know the truth are the children of Brian and Peter (if they do know of course!).

I'm sure it's been well explored.

However, in my life, as I've come 'back' to things from my younger days, I understand there are some things in life that you need a 'few years on your shoulders' to truly understand them.

Some 'old movies', 'some old songs' and yes, the breakdown of famous DUOs.  Whether that be Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin (he walked away from a 20-30 million contract, yes, in those times that would have been some coin...) or Clough and Taylor.

So any insights from COYRDs board members would be appreciated.

Clough was on TV a lot.  Did it rankle Taylor that Clough got all the credit when he was the one being chief talent spotter?  Didn't Taylor think he was appreciated enough?

Back to Derby.  I hadn't heard of that one.  But they burned the bridge to Derby with kerosine?  But maybe there is a kernel of truth in that?  Taylor DID go back to Derby and perhaps he wanted to show 'old Big 'ed' that he was the power behind the throne.  But that didn't ultimately work out for Peter.  (He poached a few of Forest's players?  eg. Robertson?) I def' got the feeling and it was probably mentioned at the time that Taylor wanted to show he could do it on his own.


The famous 'We've shot it...' and 'No, you've shot it...' suggests a rankling over player recruitment.  Maybe Taylor hadn't been bringing in the diamonds as readily as the Golden Generation peaked exacerbated by the turfing out of Forest in the 1st round of their Euro Cup defence. That must have hurt. From being two time winners to going out in the 1st round.

I'd imagine the blazing row after that one. The paint must have pealed from the dressing room walls. A pivotal moment like that would have started the chain reaction. But I'm speculating. (The point of this thread or any kernels of truth.)

Clough strikes me as the one to brashly move forward especially after the ignominy of such a defeat. In the seasons following the Euro Cups, I still recall Forest being a decent side but I do recall we'd lost the 'edge' to challenge for the top 2. Taylor may have heeded caution following the upset.  But consolidation....Clough didn't have time for that. And I recall Forest spent some large sums of money on players who didn't cut it.

Maybe Forest had their money locked up in an injured Trevor Francis. I don't recall with great detail of how he performed after the injury. Not sure he was the 'same' player.

As for drink.  Drink can amplify hairline fractures between people...and cloud judgement.

As can emotions.

SA.

[Duncan Mckenzie]

Also...selling Birtles to Man U.

SA.

Man. United were offering huge money. Like now we couldn't compete with them financially although we were a better team than them back then.

I know it was a bit later but when Neil Webb left Forest for Man. United Fergie gave him a blank cheque to sign.

[zicorice]

Later in life Cloughie admitted to breaking up the team too quickly. Having walked I believe on water, human nature dictated that they believed they could do anything and it would work. Telling Lloydy he was too old but then bringing in an even older Willie Young to replace him. The likes of Fashanu, Wallace and Ponte showed that Taylor was losing his touch. Money wasted and financial difficulties followed (out of Europe, the "executive " stand also contributed hugely) causing us to offload the bigger wage earners.

The recovery came when Cloughie was forced to bring through the home grown talent more than ever - and his genius came to the fore again - Sutton, Fairclough, Hodge, Walsh, Wigley, Davenport to name a few soon after followed by the likes of Des,  Flemming, Nigel, Brett William's, David Campbell, Terry Wilson between the them spine of Cloughies sides and squad players from the 3rd place finish in 83 and the 3rd place finish in 1988.

Of course many players were also brought in and played crucial parts but Cloughies magic returned though his best sides (1988-90 in my opinion) lacked an edge that we used to have with Burns Larry and Bowyer. We were a bit too nice. We had Psycho and the football was fantastic to watch, but the likes of Wimbledon used to bully us so we always fell a bit short in the league, but were superb in the cups winning 2 and 2 FA Cup semis in a short space of time. 

In 1989 we were the best team in the country for much of the season singing "We're gonna win the lot" in late March. A midweek loss during fixture congestion to Arsenal gave them the momentum to go on and win the league and we all know what happened in FA cup semi, when we were in full swing and went to Hillsborough at full strength and one of our greatest seasons paled into insignificance and is almost now forgotten.

To be as good as we were in 1988-89 season shows to me Cloughies genius was enduring. Imagine us finishing 3rd in the Prem, Winning the league cup and reaching Semis of FA Cup playing the most attacking exciting football in the country. A team that had homegrown Sutton, Walker, Clough, Wilson supplemented by bargain buys or freebies like Laws, Pearce, Crosby, Gaynor, Chapman, Webb, Parker and a returned Hodge.

I often think that this team doesnt get the plaudits and respect it deserves and neither does Cloughie for building it on a shoestring. Webb and Hodge cost relatively big fees for the time, Chapman cost 300 000 at the time Dean Saunders cost well north of a million.

A great team.

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

Good post Zico ^

I think that sums it up nicely.

[Tricky]

Later in life Cloughie admitted to breaking up the team too quickly. Having walked I believe on water, human nature dictated that they believed they could do anything and it would work. Telling Lloydy he was too old but then bringing in an even older Willie Young to replace him. The likes of Fashanu, Wallace and Ponte showed that Taylor was losing his touch. Money wasted and financial difficulties followed (out of Europe, the "executive " stand also contributed hugely) causing us to offload the bigger wage earners.

The recovery came when Cloughie was forced to bring through the home grown talent more than ever - and his genius came to the fore again - Sutton, Fairclough, Hodge, Walsh, Wigley, Davenport to name a few soon after followed by the likes of Des,  Flemming, Nigel, Brett William's, David Campbell, Terry Wilson between the them spine of Cloughies sides and squad players from the 3rd place finish in 83 and the 3rd place finish in 1988.

Of course many players were also brought in and played crucial parts but Cloughies magic returned though his best sides (1988-90 in my opinion) lacked an edge that we used to have with Burns Larry and Bowyer. We were a bit too nice. We had Psycho and the football was fantastic to watch, but the likes of Wimbledon used to bully us so we always fell a bit short in the league, but were superb in the cups winning 2 and 2 FA Cup semis in a short space of time. 

In 1989 we were the best team in the country for much of the season singing "We're gonna win the lot" in late March. A midweek loss during fixture congestion to Arsenal gave them the momentum to go on and win the league and we all know what happened in FA cup semi, when we were in full swing and went to Hillsborough at full strength and one of our greatest seasons paled into insignificance and is almost now forgotten.

To be as good as we were in 1988-89 season shows to me Cloughies genius was enduring. Imagine us finishing 3rd in the Prem, Winning the league cup and reaching Semis of FA Cup playing the most attacking exciting football in the country. A team that had homegrown Sutton, Walker, Clough, Wilson supplemented by bargain buys or freebies like Laws, Pearce, Crosby, Gaynor, Chapman, Webb, Parker and a returned Hodge.

I often think that this team doesnt get the plaudits and respect it deserves and neither does Cloughie for building it on a shoestring. Webb and Hodge cost relatively big fees for the time, Chapman cost 300 000 at the time Dean Saunders cost well north of a million.

A great team.

Great post Zico!

Just one observation, that I may be wrong about, but I always thought Cloughie insisted we bought Fashanu but Taylor was against it on the basis that he was interested purely on the basis that  Fashanu scored a wonder strike for Norwich?