Nottingham Forest - Wigan

[Strawberry Avenger]

Carvalho is a cowardly bottler  that's not good enough

MoN benched him for pulling out of tackles.  It seemed to really irk Martin.  He's still doing it under 'The Coach.'

You just can't do that in the Championship.  Your heart has to be in the fight.  Even if you don't clean a player out, at least press to nip in and win the ball.

As Paul Hart once said, 'You don't win football matches if you can't head a ball.'  And Brian Clough called him a sea gull with concrete wellies on.  Point being.  You have to do the muck and nettles side of the game.

SA.

[ThePromisedLand]

As for Ryan Yates, he just is not good enough.

Hey, if Yates has had a crepe day then he's had a crepe day.  Singling out a DCM/CM from our Academy over the abundance of blame in our front line is harsh.  From the comments Samba and Grabban got mentioned along with Fig', the goal scorer.  That's 3 players out of 11.  If Yates 'isn't' good enough, he had a lot of company today.  (I, personally, think in a year's time, Yates will be as good as Worrall or Cash if not better.  They're been in the squad under several managers over several seasons.)

But let's look at all the players in attack (who aren't graduates of our excellent Academy system...who have cost real money.)

So, let's say Yates was the 'headless chicken' today that has been muted...what were our wingers doing?  eg. Ameobi.  Or Car (our 'star players?')  Or Lolley?  Or any of the forward players to impose themselves on the game?

Worrall, Cash have had it in the neck when they were introduced to the side.  Worrall had to do Rangers and got a lot of it in the neck up there. 

Yates is probably a year or so behind them.  So, to be in the midfield at his age is impressive.

He's recently scored a goal i.e. doing the forward's job for them.

I'd say it's like this with youth.  You introduce them amongst a team of battle ready players.  And when their form dips, you drop them to the bench.  And go again finding the time to introduce them.  But if Sow gets injured (again) who do we play their instead?  We haven't really got one who is better than Yates as back up.  So Yates continues his apprenticeship alongside the ageing legs of Watson.

Jan'.  Jack Colback.  We can only hope.  It shouldn't be on Yates to carry Forest's promotion hopes.

That's recruitment's job.  And they didn't do it 'that well' in Summer.  But they did it well enough to secure Sow.  Without him, Forest would be mid-table this season.  And he's been missing for the other half of the 1st half of this season.

SA.

You’re right - it shouldn’t be ‘on Yates shoulders’.
The fact that he is an academy product is totally irrelevant.
If you’re not good enough I don’t give a toss where you came from.
And as for him being ‘a year behind’ he’s the same age as Worrall, Cash & Carvalho.

[the jock]

Saw an interview with robert pires over xmas. He said you have to be able to give it in English football or you wont succeed. Carvalho clearly cant. I wouldn't pay 1mill for the lad

[Strawberry Avenger]

Some might say that I am negative, but that was a daylight robbery. Happy with the three points but to be reduced to play like that against the team bottom of table, at home that even rested less then us...that is worrying.
We have to thank the defence for this clean sheet, the rest of the team was useless.
Midfield without Sow is non existent, for what it takes, now just go and get Colback, cant understand what is the purpose of Bostock...he cannot even get on the bench.
Subs had minimal impact, just five minutes as theh came in, but disappeared from ghent onwards.
Canf understand why Frey kept saying that we r just 9 points from second with a game in hand. Do anyone think that this team is good enough or deserves to be promoted !!! ... holding on like that v Wigan like we r playing against Chelsea or something. Hope the latter play their kids against us, as keep playing like this and another 5 nil is on ghd cards.

We put in a really good away performance at Hull, then against a Wigan side, fighting for their lives we kept a clean sheet - just and rode our luck, but took 3 points still.
We are not that much better than Wigan in a 90 minute shoot out, but we scrapped to the win, over the years we have lost these types of games and taken no points.

I support the team and occasionally will call out players for letting themselves down. You however slaughter them for not being able to bury a tidy (though toothless) Wigan side. You are aware they were in the Premier League far more recently than us aren't you? They also won a major trophy a few years back whilst we have been languishing for 20 years outside the top flight.Your comments about Wigan smack of arrogance and entitlement. It was obvious to anyone at the game that we were struggling to get going, so many of us got behind the boys and at 1-0 We all wanted a clean sheet more than anything. Sometimes lady luck is with you, sometimes she is not.

Some people played way below their capabilities today, that does not make them not good enough. Do you not think Yates will reflect on how he played today? Carvalho looked like his confidence is lacking, so slating him should help boost him. At least Alf is constructive in his feelings about whete we are with Carvalho and that he has class we want to see more of-like the chance he made for Grabban before half time. You slate him for missing a half volley from 20 yards on the turn. Those are 1 in 10 half chances at best.

I've just got back fairly relieved and happy after a tough 3 points has been ground out to give us 6 points in 2 games and Frey is right about the position we are in.

Just say something positive for once. Or dont.

You make some fair points about the nature of the Championship.

And Wigan's relatively recent Premier status (which they held onto for some years whilst Forest were gazing at their navel or being run badly.)  In that context you have to give Wigan some credit.  That's why I didn't feel that Forest 'should' win this game at all.  It was going to be a fight.  And, like in local Derbys....form goes out the window.

You highlight two interesting players.  Yates is a developing player who will reflect  on his performance today.  Whilst Car'?  Seems shot of confidence from the player that arrived.  I'd like them both to succeed.  Realistically, I think Yates will continue his development from the bench or on the pitch (depending on how January goes....) and Car' could be facing the exit door because of his price tag.  I feel, in the latter's case, he maybe needs another recruit to augment his abilities on the pitch.  And Forest don't seem to have that player now.  Colback and Os' left the 1st team but even with them in it...Car' was patchy.  

As for players being 'good enough.' I think a recent league position of 9th says they aren't. Now without one key player who seems to ignite the team.

Positive.  Sure.  Forest are 5th.  By the grace of Sow.  (I'll attribute the recent bounce to him.)

Fair play to Samba (great penalty save), Fig (his goal tally is now 2! Well done!) and Grabban who turned up today be 'The Boss.'

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

As for Ryan Yates, he just is not good enough.

Hey, if Yates has had a crepe day then he's had a crepe day.  Singling out a DCM/CM from our Academy over the abundance of blame in our front line is harsh.  From the comments Samba and Grabban got mentioned along with Fig', the goal scorer.  That's 3 players out of 11.  If Yates 'isn't' good enough, he had a lot of company today.  (I, personally, think in a year's time, Yates will be as good as Worrall or Cash if not better.  They're been in the squad under several managers over several seasons.)

But let's look at all the players in attack (who aren't graduates of our excellent Academy system...who have cost real money.)

So, let's say Yates was the 'headless chicken' today that has been muted...what were our wingers doing?  eg. Ameobi.  Or Car (our 'star players?')  Or Lolley?  Or any of the forward players to impose themselves on the game?

Worrall, Cash have had it in the neck when they were introduced to the side.  Worrall had to do Rangers and got a lot of it in the neck up there. 

Yates is probably a year or so behind them.  So, to be in the midfield at his age is impressive.

He's recently scored a goal i.e. doing the forward's job for them.

I'd say it's like this with youth.  You introduce them amongst a team of battle ready players.  And when their form dips, you drop them to the bench.  And go again finding the time to introduce them.  But if Sow gets injured (again) who do we play their instead?  We haven't really got one who is better than Yates as back up.  So Yates continues his apprenticeship alongside the ageing legs of Watson.

Jan'.  Jack Colback.  We can only hope.  It shouldn't be on Yates to carry Forest's promotion hopes.

That's recruitment's job.  And they didn't do it 'that well' in Summer.  But they did it well enough to secure Sow.  Without him, Forest would be mid-table this season.  And he's been missing for the other half of the 1st half of this season.

SA.

You’re right - it shouldn’t be ‘on Yates shoulders’.
The fact that he is an academy product is totally irrelevant.
If you’re not good enough I don’t give a toss where you came from.
And as for him being ‘a year behind’ he’s the same age as Worrall, Cash & Carvalho.

Aye.  It's a bit harsh for it be on Yate's shoulders. 

He's a recent introduction to the Forest team compared to the others who have had years in the team.  They've had far more development in that 1st team under several managers at this level for several seasons.  That's an advantage Yates didn't have.  Players develop at different ages.  Marlon Harewood being a prime example. Yates momentum was somewhat curtailed under Aitor instead of sending him out on loan he was in no man's land for half a season. But got to hang around the squad. Perhaps a loan to another Championship team where he would play would have helped his development.

There is the adage if you're you're good enough then you're old enough.  Yates is in the Forest team. But to pin a top 6 position on a DCM/CM been introduced to the 1st team in the last half a year (played a lot under MoN...) or just 'one' striker such as Grabban?

If we're pointing blame or fingers....perhaps the 'blame' needs to go elsewhere.

Young players sometimes develop at variable rates.  And that applies to Car' too.

But again, it falls down to recruitment.  If Yates (recently scored a goal so he did part of the forward line's job...) has an off day he gets dropped to the bench to continue his development.  Same for Car'.  But the problem for the latter.  He cost £13 million ish.  We're not Chelsea.  We can't afford to introduce young players who cost £13 million from 'our' bench.

So.  Yates is a year behind in his development.  At least.  Regardless of age.  His form will go up and down.  He doesn't get to stay in the team regardless of form.  Car' too.  But Forest lack options at DCM and ACM.  So...*(looks around.)

Recruitment.  Give The Coach options to allow these players to develop and take the pressure off the shoulders.

That's where January should be about bringing in Jack Colback or better who is battle ready for this league.

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Saw an interview with robert pires over xmas. He said you have to be able to give it in English football or you wont succeed. Carvalho clearly cant. I wouldn't pay 1mill for the lad

Cheers Jock.  As Clough once said, 'Get in there!  That's what I pay you for.'  or 'You're forwards aren't getting hurt enough if they aren't scoring goals.'

That's the Championship.  There is no should.  It's 'earn the right.'  Yes.  When it's dark and winter...a muddy pitch...when someone has slapped you up or kicked you  or shoved you on the back of the head (remember the big lad giving Ben Os' a right shove on the back of the head last season...and Ben' took it when he could have reacted...kept his cool.)

As Basset once said, 'It's a man's game.'  (Forest had been roughed up vs Sheff' Wed' I think, funnily enough. ;)  One of his players had been moaning about being shunted off the ball...  Dave told him you have to be able to cope with that.  i.e. the physical side of the game.  Probably Bonalair or someone moaning.  It seems we're still having the debate about this all these years later in the Championship.  ie.  Gainst Wednesday Forest looked outfought and out-athleted and out thought.  They have some of the missing ingredients we're after.)

Car' has the talent.  But does he have the will to win? (If he had Yate's 'Will to win' he'd be the player we 'think' he is. He seems mentally shot.)

Yates.  Has the will to win.  And he isn't 'untalented.'  It's just not in that 'sexy' ACM position.

Still have to run.  Still have to win tackles.  Head a ball.  Still have to show a will to win even if you look like a 'headless chicken' at times.

Composure.  How many of Forest's 11 had that today?

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

The manager has to take portion of the  blame too. Teams like Barnsley and wigan have dominated us.  Sheff wed destroyed us. We just have no support whatsoever for grabban . I find it hard to watch to be honest. Their keeper only had 1 save.

We beat derby via a poor mistake. Our home form vastly needs Improving.

I think 'The Coach' has cost us points.  More than 3.  More than 6.  He hasn't been blameless in that barren run of 7 games.  Shocking about of points to lose.  Could have seen us easily 3rd and closing the gap with Leeds.  Points just tossed away.

There were a couple of games (maybe 3) where he's gone with a radical starting line up and cost the match (funnily enough, I think one of those was against Wigan...)  They score then you're up hill for the 2nd half.

You have to wonder what's going on when Barnsley and Wigan are dominating Forest.  Usually in midfield.  Not that we 'should' be beating them.  But why aren't we earning the right to be them?  Or the naive tactics to concede those last minute goals vs Millwall and Boro' and the poor 'sit back' and defend football that was played.  Forest just seemed lifeless and lost...waiting for some spark to bring them to life.

Sheff Wed' destroyed 'us' because that result in a Forest side minus Sow has been coming a long while.  Forest had been leading a somewhat charmed life without him.  But that also turns us back to recruitment.  Perhaps The Coach 'can't' change things up.  He muted that re: the 'no' subs gamesmanship vs Wednesday.  There aren't the players on the bench to change it.

If that's true.

It's critical that Forest, The Coach highlight some Samba, Sow and Grabban style quality in January.  It has to be ready to hit the ground running.

SA.

[Strawberry Avenger]

Some might say that I am negative, but that was a daylight robbery. Happy with the three points but to be reduced to play like that against the team bottom of table, at home that even rested less then us...that is worrying.
We have to thank the defence for this clean sheet, the rest of the team was useless.
Midfield without Sow is non existent, for what it takes, now just go and get Colback, cant understand what is the purpose of Bostock...he cannot even get on the bench.
Subs had minimal impact, just five minutes as theh came in, but disappeared from ghent onwards.
Canf understand why Frey kept saying that we r just 9 points from second with a game in hand. Do anyone think that this team is good enough or deserves to be promoted !!! ... holding on like that v Wigan like we r playing against Chelsea or something. Hope the latter play their kids against us, as keep playing like this and another 5 nil is on ghd cards.

I won't.  

Think you're just being realistic about where Forest are without quality players.  Forest were recently 9th and had earned that position. Not a blip. More of a plop (if you know what I mean...)

Sow gets back in the side? Take off. BOOM!

Forest without Sow are non-existent.  He was instrumental in achieving that top 6.  And funnily enough, his re-appareance re-ignited Forest.  Briefly.  Before getting injured again.

Forest Recruitment.  Are you getting it yet?  It's the Championship.  Forest need quality battle ready athletes who are mentally tough and not midgets. And we're asking a lot of Yates, Cash at RB (a converted midfield player...) and our young CHs to carry 'us' into the top 6. Where is our ACM to give Car' a chance to get his head together? To summon up his sense of competition? Forest don't have options in those positions. Not fit, battle ready to muck an nettle in the Championship.

Forest aint closing that gap on Leeds without Sow or recruits in Jan'. We'll be fortunate to hold top 6.

All that said. Look at the results to day. If Forest think they have problems...

SA.

[PsychoStanleyStone]

*** Awesome positive alert ***

Ok, we were extremely clinical today, 2 attempts on target and 1 went in

2 corners, the first resulted in the 2nd which went in

That is extremely clinical and how often has the word clinical been used lately?

*** End of Awesome Positive Alert ****

[ThePromisedLand]

Saw an interview with robert pires over xmas. He said you have to be able to give it in English football or you wont succeed. Carvalho clearly cant. I wouldn't pay 1mill for the lad

Cheers Jock.  As Clough once said, 'Get in there!  That's what I pay you for.'  or 'You're forwards aren't getting hurt enough if they aren't scoring goals.'

That's the Championship.  There is no should.  It's 'earn the right.'  Yes.  When it's dark and winter...a muddy pitch...when someone has slapped you up or kicked you  or shoved you on the back of the head (remember the big lad giving Ben Os' a right shove on the back of the head last season...and Ben' took it when he could have reacted...kept his cool.)

As Basset once said, 'It's a man's game.'  (Forest had been roughed up vs Sheff' Wed' I think, funnily enough. ;)  One of his players had been moaning about being shunted off the ball...  Dave told him you have to be able to cope with that.  i.e. the physical side of the game.  Probably Bonalair or someone moaning.  It seems we're still having the debate about this all these years later in the Championship.  ie.  Gainst Wednesday Forest looked outfought and out-athleted and out thought.  They have some of the missing ingredients we're after.)

Car' has the talent.  But does he have the will to win?

Yates.  Has the will to win.  And he isn't 'untalented.'  It's just not in that 'sexy' ACM position.

Still have to run.  Still have to win tackles.  Head a ball.  Still have to show a will to win even if you look like a 'headless chicken' at times.

Composure.  How many of Forest's 11 had that today?

SA.

We’ll beg to differ SA.
He has confidence, determination & even cockiness ( no bad thing ) in spades.
But he ain’t a championship standard player.
And his lack of pace ( I’m trying to be kind ) will be his biggest handicap at whatever level he finally finds himself in ( and you can’t coach that ).

[Strawberry Avenger]

Saw an interview with robert pires over xmas. He said you have to be able to give it in English football or you wont succeed. Carvalho clearly cant. I wouldn't pay 1mill for the lad

Cheers Jock.  As Clough once said, 'Get in there!  That's what I pay you for.'  or 'You're forwards aren't getting hurt enough if they aren't scoring goals.'

That's the Championship.  There is no should.  It's 'earn the right.'  Yes.  When it's dark and winter...a muddy pitch...when someone has slapped you up or kicked you  or shoved you on the back of the head (remember the big lad giving Ben Os' a right shove on the back of the head last season...and Ben' took it when he could have reacted...kept his cool.)

As Basset once said, 'It's a man's game.'  (Forest had been roughed up vs Sheff' Wed' I think, funnily enough. ;)  One of his players had been moaning about being shunted off the ball...  Dave told him you have to be able to cope with that.  i.e. the physical side of the game.  Probably Bonalair or someone moaning.  It seems we're still having the debate about this all these years later in the Championship.  ie.  Gainst Wednesday Forest looked outfought and out-athleted and out thought.  They have some of the missing ingredients we're after.)

Car' has the talent.  But does he have the will to win?

Yates.  Has the will to win.  And he isn't 'untalented.'  It's just not in that 'sexy' ACM position.

Still have to run.  Still have to win tackles.  Head a ball.  Still have to show a will to win even if you look like a 'headless chicken' at times.

Composure.  How many of Forest's 11 had that today?

SA.

We’ll beg to differ SA.
He has confidence, determination & even cockiness ( no bad thing ) in spades.
But he ain’t a championship standard player.
And his lack of pace ( I’m trying to be kind ) will be his biggest handicap at whatever level he finally finds himself in ( and you can’t coach that ).

He's taken to the Championship reasonably well.  And he's still under developed.  Probably a year or so behind Worrall and Cash in development(!).  Cash, Worrall (Who were both written off for CH and RB as early as this season.) The former of the two had Rangers on loan to really kick his development up the backside because he was crap and good in equal measure.  And fair play to Worrall, he withstood that cauldron.

As for pace.  It was noted by some quarters that Worrall wasn't the quickest and has got done for pace a few times.  Nigel Clough wasn't the quickest but had speed of thought.

So, yes.  Whilst you can't coach pace to outright lightning pace, it hasn't stopped Watson's experience from having a good season.  

Yates is still young.  in age.  And particular his development was coming along nicely before being indecisively railroaded by Aitor.  Given that colour, I felt MoN and Keane got him back on track last season.

Think there is more to come from Yates.  His will to win will secure further development.  He may end up better than Worrall and Cash. Character. Is sometimes more important than wasted talent. Is Character something you can coach? According to our Academy it is.

As for being a Championship player.  He's in a top 5 side.  (With many of the other 7 players highlighting by their own poor performances, that yes, Yates isn't the finished article yet.) His 'lack of pace.' Strange how he's managed to get into the box at times and get the odd goal for Forest when Forest's lightning paced forward line haven't scored. Being there is sometimes more important than getting there. In the games he's been off the pace I noticed that has been a malaise of quite a few of the team. The performance v Sheff Wed' was an example. The whole team seemed to be ball watching and off the pace not closing down the 2nd ball. Maybe the whole team isn't quick enough?

It's a team game at the end of the day.  If the forward line aren't doing their job it puts a lot of stress on Yates and Watson. Youngsters often look better and perform better in a team that has battle ready and quality talent with some experience. Worrall, Yates and Cash have been somewhat wragged at various stages of the season seeming to 'lack pace.'

It's taken this long for Forest to 'master the press' and they still haven't. Ie. Mastered the press. And that's because they lost Sow. They don't have enough players like Sow to hang the responsibility at the floor of Car, Yates, Cash or Worrall if I'm going to be even handed. It's not just about Yates. That's a symptom of recruitment.

And Forest are behind in that regard. That's why they got battered by Wednesday. And it had been coming if we're being honest.

If Sow is fit?  Yates is on the bench, where, realistically, he (and Car'...) would be.

SA.

[JWJW]

Carv missed pre-season and has not been able to find any form so far. This happens. The likelihood is he needs time away to find his form. A loan to Oly is probably the best thing now, go there, new surroundings, find some form and then if he plays well Oly can buy him in the summer.

He does make pathetic attempts at winning headers - but he is a midget - that's not his thing. Winning tackles and winning headers is just not him, he is a creative player and when his form is out, like now, all you see is a player losing headers and not making tackles. Don't slate the lad for it - that's not his thing, however you can he is totally bereft of his creative form and so needs to find it soon, here or at Oly.

We don't miss Colback and don't need him - Watson is doing that job.

We need Sow or another like Sow, the midfield dynamo.

Yates can probably replace Watson, but Yates cannot replace Sow.

Semedo for sure is not good enough...…..seen enough of him now.

Silva offers more defensive cover than Carv, but is not as good creatively as Carv when Carv is on form (which he has not been since MoN messed him up, then missed a pre-season).

So - the urgent signing in January is another Sow. A midfield dynamo.

Wingers - today again proves that Lolley (in his current form) and Ameobi are just not good enough. Another 2 urgent signings are 2 wingers.

Finally yes, we need cover for Grabban - but just that - cover. Gayle is not going to come to play second fiddle to Grabban. Mir is not good enough. For this I would like to see a loan from a Premier team.