+- COYR NOTTINGHAM FOREST FORUM (https://coyrforestforum.co.uk)
+-- Forum: NOTTINGHAM FOREST - A REBEL CLUB IN A REBEL CITY (https://coyrforestforum.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Nottingham Forest Fan Talk - Forest All Over The World (https://coyrforestforum.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: NFFC Critical Thread (/showthread.php?tid=825)
NFFC Critical Thread - Jsmed - 06-10-2020
Anyone read the article put out by Dan Taylor and Paul Taylor, apparently it’s pretty brutal? If anyone can post it in here or PM me the text, I’d appreciate it.
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - Marinakis Red - 06-10-2020
Brutal in what way?
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - Reds73 - 06-10-2020
(06-10-2020, 07:44 PM)Jsmed Wrote: Anyone read the article put out by Dan Taylor and Paul Taylor, apparently it’s pretty brutal? If anyone can post it in here or PM me the text, I’d appreciate it.Here you go -
Sabri Lamouchi should probably have known he was vulnerable after the Zoom call that Nottingham Forest’s owner, Evangelos Marinakis, had arranged with the players ahead of the new season.
It was September 8 when the players logged on to find out what Marinakis wanted to say. The season was just a few days away and, as they waited for Marinakis to appear on screen, the expectation was that the Greek oligarch wanted to give them a few words of support.
Yet what they heard that day made it absolutely clear that Lamouchi — sacked today after losing every game so far this season — was under considerable pressure and that Marinakis’ patience was wearing thin, to say the least.
Marinakis was angry. A few days earlier, Forest had gone out of the EFL Cup with a vapid 1-0 defeat at Barnsley. It brought back unhappy memories for Lamouchi and his players. They had lost at Barnsley, then bottom of the Championship, during the spectacular collapse that torpedoed Forest’s promotion hopes last season.
As the players watched in dismayed silence, Marinakis set about making his point, in strong terms, that he did not like what he had seen.
He told the players it had been a humiliation for the club, twice, to be outplayed by a Barnsley side that had come so close to being relegated. Barnsley, he said, had spent only a fraction of the money that had been invested into Forest on his watch.
With every sentence, it was becoming apparent to the players that Marinakis, with his fierce desire to establish Forest as a Premier League club, would not tolerate more of the same.
Marinakis made it clear there were players on that Zoom call who were finished at the club and, tellingly, he also appeared to question the way they were being managed. The Athletic has been told he announced in front of everyone they were having too many days off. Marinakis was also said to have mentioned they were not training hard enough.
Lamouchi was part of the same Zoom meeting and could probably have been forgiven if he felt badly undermined in front of his players.
![[Image: NOTTINGHAM-FOREST-FANS-LAMOUCHI-scaled-e...491185.jpg]](https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/10/02080740/NOTTINGHAM-FOREST-FANS-LAMOUCHI-scaled-e1601640491185.jpg)
Lamouchi quickly settled in Nottingham and the Forest faithful took him to heart (Photo: Zac Goodwin/EMPICS/PA Images via Getty Images)
Ultimately, though, Lamouchi should know enough about the expectations at the City Ground to understand why Marinakis has lost trust in him. Three years since taking control of the club, Marinakis had aspirations of Forest being in the Premier League at this stage. It has not happened and Forest started gathering information on other managerial candidates even before the 2-1 home defeat to Bristol City on Saturday that sealed Lamouchi’s fate. Half an hour after the club confirmed Lamouchi had been sacked, Chris Hughton was announced as his successor.
A blip has become a slump. Forest are on a run of zero wins in 11 matches, three in 20 and six in 27. They have lost seven games in a row and, in modern-day football, these are sackable statistics. However it is dressed up, it plainly was not good enough for a club with Forest’s ambitions.
That decision has not been taken lightly when Lamouchi was respected and liked within the club and regarded, at all levels, as an astute, professional and highly organised coach who had embraced life in Nottingham and was, for a long time, revered by supporters.
His sacking also represents a remarkable turnaround bearing in mind his positive impact when he took over from Martin O’Neill and the long periods last season when the club had realistic aspirations of ending what is now a 21-year exile from the Premier League.
Forest had been in the play-offs from Boxing Day until the now-infamous meltdown in their final match, losing 4-1 at home to Stoke City, to fall out of the top six on goal difference, deep into stoppage-time. Psychologically, there was always a danger it could leave a hangover and affect their early-season form. It was for Lamouchi to ensure that was not the case and, ultimately, his failure to do so has cost him his job.
Behind the scenes, it has also become apparent that Lamouchi’s popularity in the dressing room is not as strong as it was. Individuals had become frustrated at the manner in which they could be in the starting XI for one game and out of the squad completely for the next, without necessarily having performed badly. Several players did not know where they stood with him, complaining that he would tell them one thing and then do something entirely different. Call it the manager’s prerogative, perhaps. But whatever it was, it had contributed to a change in how a number of players had come to regard him.
Lamouchi was rarely a screamer or a shouter. His dressing room persona has been described to The Athletic as more philosophical. He did not often rant or rave, but he did like to refer to quotes about life and “getting back what you put into it.” His passionate team-talks had become a trademark – though, after the recent defeat to Huddersfield Town, he is understood not to have gone into the changing room at all, to offer any kind of observations, philosophical or otherwise.
Had he lost the dressing room? Not at all. But did the Frenchman emphatically have everyone’s backing in the way he did this time a year ago? That wasn’t the case either. A number of players had lost trust in what he told them and questioned whether he was fully in charge.
The Greeks run a tough and uncompromising regime — a culture that has created a tense and uneasy atmosphere at times — and the manager’s job at Forest, as O’Neill and Aitor Karanka can testify, is not an easy one.
In Lamouchi’s case, a number of players had been signed without him necessarily wanting them, knowing a great deal about who they are, or having much of a say. Forest’s transfer-market dealings in the January window were particularly disappointing. Lamouchi gave the players the impression sometimes that he was following orders, rather than having the power to do everything his own way.
Forest will now have to pay him off and, almost certainly, the same will apply to the four coaches who were added to Lamouchi’s staff as a part of a backroom shake-up only six weeks ago.
Lamouchi signed a new two-year contract in June, with the option of a third year, and was said to be disappointed and hurt that, rather than feeling any support internally, his position was immediately under threat after the Stoke debacle four weeks later.
He was subsequently invited to Athens for a summit with Marinakis, chief executive Ioannis Vrentzos, technical director Francois Modesto and the head of international recruitment, Jose Anigo, who was arrested last week by French police as part of an investigation into the transfer of Marseille winger Isaac Lihadji to Lille.
There were some frank exchanges and it was decided ultimately that Lamouchi should keep his job but that his backroom staff should be changed. Lamouchi made the point that he wanted more of a say in terms of recruitment. After the game on Saturday, he made it clear this was still not his department.
Yet Marinakis and Vrentzos, who runs the club day-to-day, have not just been concerned about the deterioration in results but also the team’s style of play. Over time, it had become clear that opposition teams had worked out how to counter Forest’s strengths and, in turn, that Lamouchi had been unable to adapt his own tactics accordingly.
Lamouchi had largely built his team around a 4-2-3-1 system that relied on stout defending, catching out their opponents on the counter-attack and Lewis Grabban’s effectiveness in the opposition penalty area. It worked for two-thirds of last season. Then opponents stopped leaving themselves exposed to breakaway attacks and Forest had no other way of playing.
One criticism of Lamouchi was that Forest had a habit of starting games slowly. Another was that his team did not have a system in place to chase games if they went behind.
In almost every match, Forest had less of the ball than their opponents. Remarkably, they had more shots from outside the penalty area last season than inside. They were 21st out of 24 teams when it came to the number of touches they had in the opposition penalty area. Their shooting accuracy was the worst in the league. Only two other teams had fewer efforts on target. This was never a problem while Forest were in the top six — but much more of an issue now they are in the bottom three.
Lamouchi, who was close to tears after the Stoke game, clashed with Brice Samba over the goalkeeper’s allegedly poor attitude to training towards the end of the last season. Matty Cash, the club’s player of the season, was sold to Aston Villa. Key players such as Grabban, Joe Lolley and Tobias Figueiredo lost form.
![[Image: JOE-LOLLEY-LEWIS-GRABBAN-SABRI-LAMOUCHI-...376531.jpg]](https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/09/29134206/JOE-LOLLEY-LEWIS-GRABBAN-SABRI-LAMOUCHI-scaled-e1601401376531.jpg)
Lolley, left and Grabban have struggled to match the form they showed in the early part of Lamouchi’s reign (Photo: James Williamson – AMA/Getty Images)
In Marinakis’ Zoom call, he warned there were going to be changes and, within 24 hours, Joao Carvalho and Albert Adomah had been told to find other clubs. Carvalho was Forest’s record transfer, having signed from Benfica in a structured £13 million package, but flew to Spain at the start of the week to join Almeria. Before that, he had been consigned with Adomah to the “bomb squad,” the list of outcasts at Forest who train and eat away from the main group. Lamouchi had told his players he was against this kind of operation but, again, that left them questioning whether he was fully in control.
Thirteen new players have arrived — one, on average, every six days — and Lamouchi fielded an entirely new back four in his last away fixture at Huddersfield. Only three players in Forest’s starting line-up that day were at the club last season. It was unusual, to say the least. They lost 1-0 and, having come so close to reaching the play-offs last season, it has surprised many people in football that Forest have decided wholesale changes were necessary.
Inside the club, however, this has become the norm. Forest have made an astonishing 70 signings since the summer of 2017 and been fortunate, in terms of financial fair play, that their academy has continued producing impressive young players who are then sold on to make up for the money that has been spent on fees and wages. Seven of Forest’s academy graduates are playing in the Premier League, and only one of their 70 signings.
A number of players have been paid off and one January signing, the attacker Nuno da Costa, was loaned out to a Belgian club this week after eight months in which he finished with minus-one goals — the scorer of one own-goal and none at the right end.
Nobody can doubt Marinakis’s ambition, with a number of shrewd signings among the influx this season, but Hughton will inherit a squad that could field three separate teams. A lot of those players have got very rich from doing very little and, however ambitious Forest might be to make it back to the Premier League, there are legitimate questions to be asked about whether they have the transfer know-how and strategy to do it.
As for Lamouchi, the banner for “Until Sabri I Was Never Happy” — think of The Stone Roses’ song Sally Cinnamon — will not be seen again.
Lamouchi had frequently mentioned in his first year that his ambition was to become Forest’s first manager since 2010-11 to start and finish a season. His second season, however, lasted only five games. Lamouchi has an offer from Al Dulail in Qatar and made the point on Saturday that he had been approached by a Premier League club, almost certainly Watford, last season. And Forest, once again, are left to reflect on a cycle of expensive failure.
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - Fumanchew - 06-10-2020
(06-10-2020, 07:45 PM)Karanka red Wrote: Brutal in what way?
Excerpts:
Marinakis made it clear there were players on that Zoom call who were finished at the club and, tellingly, he also appeared to question the way they were being managed. The Athletic has been told he announced in front of everyone they were having too many days off. Marinakis was also said to have mentioned they were not training hard enough.
Lamouchi was part of the same Zoom meeting and could probably have been forgiven if he felt badly undermined in front of his players.
Behind the scenes, it has also become apparent that Lamouchi’s popularity in the dressing room is not as strong as it was. Individuals had become frustrated at the manner in which they could be in the starting XI for one game and out of the squad completely for the next, without necessarily having performed badly. Several players did not know where they stood with him, complaining that he would tell them one thing and then do something entirely different. Call it the manager’s prerogative, perhaps. But whatever it was, it had contributed to a change in how a number of players had come to regard him.
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - ozzyten10 - 06-10-2020
Read that. Damning article that is brave - PT And DT obviously thought so as to pair up for it.
The undermining of the coach meant dead man walking and explains everything about the players seeming unhappy. It’s ok to dig people out now and again but that zoom call had the opposite effect obviously.
This suggests that Sabri wasn’t even in charge of team selection! Fawaz esque ownership.
The coms about his departure are awful and show a lack of class.
I’m interested that Chris Hughton is ‘manager’ too. And I agree with the change and choice. I had an inkling someone has been working from afar with the signings and I am under no doubt this has been about forcing Sabri to go on the cheap.
Hughton will need balls of steel but he will command respect and I actually think he’ll be a good fit. He has always conducted himself impeccably and speaks well.
But it’s time to ditch some of the baggage and get the clubs own proper appointments in recruitment and sporting director/DOF. Frank Clark type please.
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - ozzyten10 - 06-10-2020
Another thing- Marinakis - too many days off- the championship is Saturday Wednesday Saturday for 46 games and relentless. They need days off!
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - pennhillred - 06-10-2020
Got to say that article is pretty damning about our current ownership. Especially worrying coming from Dan Taylor.
He has tweeted, "There is loads of ambition, no strategy/expertise and all sorts of terrible decision-making. Hughton is a good manager. He has no chance - just like all the others - unless the club has rethink. The CEO, the transfer ‘experts’ ... the spotlight should be on then as much as Sabri" and that, “Everyone within the game can see what’s gone on.”
Of course Marinakis et al can run the club how they want & things are better than our previous ownership, but they are not exempt from questioning. And that article raises a lot of questions...
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - pennhillred - 06-10-2020
(06-10-2020, 08:44 PM)ozzyten10 Wrote: Read that. Damning article that is brave - PT And DT obviously thought so as to pair up for it.
The undermining of the coach meant dead man walking and explains everything about the players seeming unhappy. It’s ok to dig people out now and again but that zoom call had the opposite effect obviously.
This suggests that Sabri wasn’t even in charge of team selection! Fawaz esque ownership.
The coms about his departure are awful and show a lack of class.
I’m interested that Chris Hughton is ‘manager’ too. And I agree with the change and choice. I had an inkling someone has been working from afar with the signings and I am under no doubt this has been about forcing Sabri to go on the cheap.
Hughton will need balls of steel but he will command respect and I actually think he’ll be a good fit. He has always conducted himself impeccably and speaks well.
But it’s time to ditch some of the baggage and get the clubs own proper appointments in recruitment and sporting director/DOF. Frank Clark type please.
Well said. In complete agreement with all of this!
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - Salvatore Matrecano - 06-10-2020
Bloody hell Forest, I go a few hours without looking at t’internet and look what happens.
My instant reaction to Hughton was meh but he has a decent CV. Lets see if he is still here this time next year.
The article on Lamouchi was pretty damning. Not that it took much foresight to have the article prepped however they have been sitting on that information about the Zoom call and players feelings for a while clearly. Those inside the club knew this was coming.
I echo Ozzy’s point about a DOF too. An English one or one with plenty English experience needed, not some stooge from Greece.
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - ThePromisedLand - 06-10-2020
(06-10-2020, 08:51 PM)pennhillred Wrote: Got to say that article is pretty damning about our current ownership. Especially worrying coming from Dan Taylor.
He has tweeted, "There is loads of ambition, no strategy/expertise and all sorts of terrible decision-making. Hughton is a good manager. He has no chance - just like all the others - unless the club has rethink. The CEO, the transfer ‘experts’ ... the spotlight should be on then as much as Sabri" and that, “Everyone within the game can see what’s gone on.”
Of course Marinakis et al can run the club how they want & things are better than our previous ownership, but they are not exempt from questioning. And that article raises a lot of questions...
That was my take - not so much a criticism of Lamouchi as a hatchet job on the owner.
I hope that Hughton has sought guarantees - even if they aren’t delivered.
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - Salvatore Matrecano - 06-10-2020
It isnt a hatchet job on the owner but it is on those who run the club day to day. I dont care that Vrentzos and Modesto are EMs trusted servants. They have failed for 3 years they had no understanding of English football and from this summer’s activity Im not convinced they are learning.
To be successful stop making the manager the fall guy and employ people who know how to run a football club in this country. That isn’t attacking our owner, that is saying what he could do if he wants to get the club moving forward.
RE: Next Manager The Runners & Riders - pennhillred - 06-10-2020
(06-10-2020, 08:59 PM)ThePromisedLand Wrote:(06-10-2020, 08:51 PM)pennhillred Wrote: Got to say that article is pretty damning about our current ownership. Especially worrying coming from Dan Taylor.
He has tweeted, "There is loads of ambition, no strategy/expertise and all sorts of terrible decision-making. Hughton is a good manager. He has no chance - just like all the others - unless the club has rethink. The CEO, the transfer ‘experts’ ... the spotlight should be on then as much as Sabri" and that, “Everyone within the game can see what’s gone on.”
Of course Marinakis et al can run the club how they want & things are better than our previous ownership, but they are not exempt from questioning. And that article raises a lot of questions...
That was my take - not so much a criticism of Lamouchi as a hatchet job on the owner.
I hope that Hughton has sought guarantees - even if they aren’t delivered.
Lamouchi & the players don’t get let off completely in the article but it’s the ownership & the running of the club that comes out of it looking really bad.
That Zoom call from Marinakis sounds like it did wonders to help get our season off to a good start…